I played a game versus my friends Daemon army. He usually complains about having a hard time vs my soft Lizardmen list and argues that he has to take a cheesy list to stand a chance of beating me. So he shows me his list: Kairos 1 Herald of Khorne BSB 3 Fiends of Slaanesh (1 unit of 2, 1 unit of 1) 35 Bloodletters 35 Bloodletters 10 Flamers (2 units of 5) 15 Furies (3 units of 5) There might have been another herald I'm not sure. Anyways, we deploy, I get the 1st turn, manage to kill the lone fiend with my chamo skinks on the 1st turn, cast iceshard blizzard on one unit of flamers, get ToV up and give +4 Toughness to a unit of Saurus Warriors. His turn, he moves forward, no charges at all, then uses the offensive head of Kairos in the magic phase. He chose the following spells: Pits of Shade Purple Sun Fate of Bujna Another one I can't remember... He casts Purple Sun. Now, I thought it was a strange spell as described in the rulebook. Why no range? Why no LoS? You choose the direction in which it scatters on the 1st turn and only 15+ to cast? So I'm like : ''Let's see if the FAQed it''. We then proceed to read the FAQ and find out that: ''All the models under or passed over by the template must take an I test''... Now how is such a strong spell only 15+ to cast? How does such a strong spell gives you no defense at all? How can such a strong spell kill multi-wounds character with barely a stupid I test? Long story short, I lost 14 TG (out of 16), my Slann, 4 Saurus Warriors (out of 4 touched) and 4 Skink Skirmishers (out of 10 touched). I would've lost more if he had known that it was all models touched or passed over by since he started 6 inches (the minimum scatter distance) away from my 1st unit. Thanks to the lore of Death abilitiy and the 25 or so wounds he caused, he got back up to 12 PD. We called it a game anyways. Now I know I could've used this or that scroll/magic item to prevent the cast from being succesful (I hade the Cube of Darkness in my army list, but it was on a fleeing Skink Priest) but the game brought up the following question: How can such a strong spell be even fun to cast or play against? After the game, my friend and I decided to change the spell for our house games: The spell has the same rules and casting values except that: You can use Ward saves, it's only the models under the template that suffer the I test. It is still a really strong spell and unless you invest in magic resistance, it will affect most units, but character will more then likely be safe. We are gonna work on other stupid spells like this one and a few other issues we found out during the game (shooting through a forest, forest not blocking LoS?) to make the game more enjoyable. So I ask you, loyal reader who took the time to read this long rant, do you think the changes we made to Purple Sun make it a good spell still??? Are we nerfing it too much? What different changes would you make to the spell? Edited: Here's the list I used for the game. IMO, it's far from being a cheesy Lizard list, it's pretty balanced without maxing out the real strenghts of the army (cheap slann, low amount of skinks) - Slann, BSB, Cupped Hands, Rumination, Mystery, Lore of Life - Old Blood, GW, Armour of Destiny, Other Trickster Shard - Skink Priest level 1, Cube of Darkness - Scar-Veteran, Armour of Fortune, Cold One, Gold Sigil Sword 25 Saurus with spears 24 Saurus with HW+Shield 10 Skink Skirmishers 20 TG 5 Chamo 5 Chamo 5 Cold One Cavalry Ancient Stegadon
Yeah I agree that those big damage spells are no fun to use, and definitely no fun to fight against. They were introduced as a way to kill hordes, otherwise hordes become too powerful, but the problem is they slaughter elite armies too, and especially LM with our low I. My gaming group has just banned all number 6 spells. Nothing wrong with your house rules to soften it, remember in future it is absolutely top priority to try to stop when using LM. And I agree the terrain rules can be a bit odd now, I don't really like them. Thats the way 8th ed has gone though, luckily WH is a game where if you don't like rules or editions you can just use different ones as long as your opponents don't care.
your list looks fine and as for the reworking of the spell, to each his own. ive had the purple son wreck house on me before, but then again i've started basing my lists around preventing the "big guns" spells from going off. becalming cog is pretty effective in preventing these spells from going off. really hard to get off those pricey spells without those 6's to help i have some questions for you though about how you played it during this game: did he start with the purple sun touching his base? if not, he should have per magical vortex rules did you take a LOS for your slann? if not, you should have per template rules and faq if im not mistaken purple son can be a pain and without a list that has some plans to prevent it, it will hurt every time. its also a good reason to take light over life, allowing you to raise that I value up. just my 2c though
yeah the big spells are quite rediculous sometime. Anything that can dicide the game on turn one is lame. purple sun is allready devasting to orcs & goblins...but our I is allready 1 point higher and the troops much cheaper. so i really dont wanna know how bad it is for lizzies. The biggest mistake is just the auto kill....should be a single wound instead (like in the goblin vortex spell) So atleast your charaters are safe, and losing a wound on them is allready a big enough on turn one.
Thanks for all the replies. Interesting LOS rule, I'll have to check it out. As for the magical vortex, I absolutely didn't know that and that would've changed the game totally (even though Kairos can fly so he could've gotten into position quite easily). I still feel like you should be able to use ward saves against any spells. I'll talk to my friend about keeping the spells as it is written (even though I think it's still ridiculously strong) but allowing ward saves and MR. Now I understand nuke spells are made to kill hordes, but truth be told, if you are paying to protect troops with MR, it should work on nukes as well. I think that magic can be way too strong as it is now and that some nukes are far more powerful then others. With a little balancing, it would be a lot more interesting and I'll be working toward that with my friends. I might make a post about balancing some spells and I would LOVE to have you guys comment on it like you did! Also, thanks for pointing out our mistakes, we are still learning the rules since it was only our 6th game together and my 8th altogether in 8th edition.
not a problem, i still find obscure rulings on random situations and i've been playing 8th since it came out. dont forget that a misfire on the artillery dice roll for the magic vortex distance results on it being centered on the casting model before scattering d6"(?). hence why people claim their death slanns are suicidal . its also why the pit of shades can be a safer way to wreck shop. and what about using just MR as a save and not adding it to the ward? makes units that are inheriently resistant to magic better (blood for the blood god?) and doesn't create an unfair advantage to, say, a phoenix guard bunker with a lord in it with MR 2 . just my thoughts, post away when you get some changes thought up.
They wouldn't need these super spells to be so extreme if they just made a cap on the number of total models in a horde. 40 infantry/ 18 MI is plenty big, but still somewhat manageable through conventional means. Also, don't forget that Purple Sun/ Pit of Shades still allows your Slann a Look out Sir roll, as per the main FAQ. Just be sure to roll for him first, in case too many Temple Guard bite it.
Yeah I guess allowing just MR would be pretty fair, especially since you won't see some 2+ WS if you make it that way since you can't stack MR. It would also make the MR 3 discipline a very strong choice for a Slann bunker. It's still only a 4+ save and you need to pay for it, but at least, it allows you to protect your investment against a nuke. It doesn't make the unit unkillable.
i agree it is a very powerful spell. proably too powerfull, but it was "calmed down" a bit: Did you remember this? Anyway, the tactical decision you can make to lessen its effect is to spread out your units and bring a slann to negate his 6s when casting. I know many players simply remove the lvl 6 spells from the chart as a house rule. if you roll a 6 when selecting spells, you can choose any other one you want.