Discussion Questions about the mysterious Old Ones.

I've been reading through my Warhammer Fantasy (8th) Lizardmen army book and I've got a few questions about the Old Ones. Maybe some of you with access to more source material and greater knowledge of the lore might have some of the answers.

In the army book the Old Ones are described as "god-like" beings from "beyond the stars". Going by that, they seem not to be actual gods at all, but rather a super sophisticated race of aliens. Does anyone have any more info on this? And do they have any relation to the Old Ones in Warhammer 40,000?

The book also states: "As their portals collapsed, the Old Ones disappeared, their fate unknown". Do any other sources (Warhammer Fantasy, Age of Sigmar, The Old World, novels, etc.) shed any more light on this? Do we have any additional information on their fate?

Also, is there any text or artwork depicting what the Old Ones might have looked like? Were the Slann created in their own image?

 

That's a very interesting take on the Old Ones. I guess there doesn't seem to be much official lore. I like your view of the Old Ones, it fits nicely with the pre-existing fluff.

I recall reading that Kroak was directly instructed by an Old One (Tepok). Slann are extraordinarily long lived, but they aren't immortal are they? Or maybe they are, which would explain lord Kroak's spirit surviving past his physical death.

I thought that the Horned Rat was some sort of Chaos deity... or is that just in Age of Sigmar? And wasn't Sotek unrelated to the Old Ones; a new and separate deity? (apologies if I'm wildly off course, I'm still trying to piece this all together)

 

I'd say the Old Ones of fantasy share the same real-life origin as their 40K counterparts simple because 40K started with a lot of fantasy's "genes" in them. Here's my take from my efforts to compile (and make sense of the timeline with the least alteration to the official materials as possible).

So in the 1th edition WFRP rulebook (released 1986), the polar gates were already in place and the Old Ones were the "Old Slanns", and Lizardmen were supposed to be the degenerative desendants of the Old Slanns themselves, their technology and knowledge lost and retained only as dogmatic rituals. Some creatures of the void -- which were to become "demon and deities in a world deprived of the protection of the old slann" (p263.). The degenerative Slanns (what lizardmen were called) managed to bound some of the less malicious warp entities to their cause, which became their gods.

The warp entities were also largely benign enough, or at least not entirely malicious, with two opposing factions on the extremes: Chaos and Order. The Gods of Law lost the Kaoskampf at the beginning, leading to a Chaos domination over the world.

I write the above because in my forrays to compile my own list, I've come to find such information isn't so much abandoned in later editions, merely transformed. The timeline of the world in both 3rd edition WHFB and the 1ed WFRP actually match up to the modern timelines with errors of about a couple years.

In WFRP 1e, it is also stated that the Old Slanns had already travelled across multiple stars, and learnt of the threat of Chaos well before their arrival on the planet of Warhammer Fantasy. They came to this world with a purpose, transplanting alien creatures and seemingly tinkering with genetic of the local fauna with some indescript purpose (263). It's clear their uplifting of the Elves, Dwarfs, and other races were kept in subsequent publications by GW alluding to this fact.

This IMO is also inherited by 40K as the Old Ones in that setting also created multiple races for war, but this time against the Necrons. Given in passed books such as the Realm of Chaos supplements and background books like the Liber Chaotica, where chainswords were a chaos gift in both fantasy games, it was implied the two settings were connected somehow. It is therefore my speculation that, the planet of Warhammer Fantasy had been one of the Old Ones' many laboratory worlds where upon they experimented to create new warrior species or improve upon existing ones (such as Eldar/Elves) -- this, however, does not explain how the Dwarfs, Halfling and Ogres are created by the Old Ones here but in 40K they are subhumans that came about during the Long Night.

The only info I know of this is from the WRFP 4th edition supplement Lustria, in which the location known as Mirror Pool of Tepok is expanded upon, said to be guarded by a Coatl and is speculated by Skinks to have connection to another dimension in which the Old Ones dwelled.
There's also the the Sentinels of Xeti, which are a bunch of obselisks what apparently acted as radio arrays, as one skink priest claimed to have heard voice of the Old Ones from it (the Slanns denied this).
So there's a possiblity the Old Ones still exist, somewhere, in the galaxy, just in hidding.
I think the interesting question here is whether the Old Ones were the same gods of the Elves, Dwarfs, Humans etc., in different guises. In 7th edition WHFB Lizardmen army book, it is stated that the Lizardmen dieties were names extracted from sacred plaques that the species come to believe to be gods (p36). No living Lizardman have first hand experience with the an Old One -- not even the five second spawning Slanns, to which Lord Mazdamundi belong, met the Old Ones (p17.) Thus, it's far more, IMO, likely that the Old One dieties the Lizardmen worship are warp entities that represent the aspects of the Old Ones the Lizardmen attribute to and come to be transformed into their gods.
The Elven pantheon, on the other hand, has had multiple extrapolations in WFRP2E and 4E as to whether they are the same as the Old Ones; of course, IRCC, one high elf Archmage denies this, but I think of it more as they have their own interpretations of the Old Ones, which they likely had some interactions with before the polar gates' collapse and come to worship these ideas as their gods.
One important point I put forward is how these gods can have their avatars, such as Ariel and Orion, in the physical world, who have some permanent connection to Isha and Kurnous, apparently. It indicates to me that these gods such as Khaine, Asuryan, Ulric etc. are warp entities that connect to the psyche of a living being. This would also work in 40K as the Fall of the Eldar saw the Eldar gods killed within the Warp ("War in Heaven"), thus necessitating their status as warp creatures.

WHFB 3E has one depiction of two Lizardmen, one Elf, one Dwarf, and one female humanoid (unclear if elf or human) in WHFB 2nd bestiary p10. There are some elsewhere who assume them to be the Old Ones, imply they were a group of different species. Detractors believe it's just artist depiction.

 

The concept that the Slann are essentially angles, also fits very nicely with the AOS renaming to Seraphon

 

I've being thinking a bit about this. What if instead of "perfection" we consider the Old Ones as being "ordered". Hence the the Chaos gods would be anathema to the very being of the Old Ones. A literal chaos-order dichotomy. I think this would also work with your idea of the Old Ones being unable to appear before mortals, because by their very nature mortals are chaotic, or at the very least, much less ordered than the Old Ones. It would also explain why they could interact with the Slann, who by design, are tremendously ordered beings.

What if the same forces that created the Chaos Gods also created Hashut and the Horned Rat? Do either of these gods demonstrate any fealty to any of the big four Chaos gods, and if so, which one(s)?

What about those halflings? Are they hobbit-like?

 

Thank you for that super detailed rundown of the old ones!! The links/similarities to their Warhammer 40,000 counterparts are intriguing.

In relation to the Mirror Pool of Tepok, does anyone try to pass through it? Is it still functional or is it offline after the polar gates collapsed? An Old One Stargate is fascinating... maybe it leads to the Warhammer 40,000 universe .

And if the Old Ones are still around, and in hiding, the interesting question becomes who or what are they hiding from?

 

The Mirror Pool of Tepok was on the Lustrian map in 6E army book, I don't think there had been much attributed to it before C7 got their hands on it. In C7's version, the Mirror Pool is described as thus:

At some point, a Dark Elf sorceress led an expedition to the pool (sine it's north of Hexoatl and the closest LZD location to Naggaround), where she was defeated and thrown into the lake as an offering. The Coatl Tlat'l was seen at the Pool the next time the Lizardmen returned to it.

Tlat'l is said to permit those it deems worth to pass to the pool (not through), the Pool is used for scrying in WD#305 so I doubt anyone was allowed to pass through it. Tlat'l is explicitly motivated by its mission to protect the pool, so something sent it (or summoned it); it will allow anyone whose current and future do not involve corrupting the world, or those whose fate it cannot forsee (it sees glimpses of the future), to look into the pool.

Any it deems unworthy, it kills; such as Sir Julien of Desfleuve, who thought the Pool was the end of his Grail Quest -- well, in a way, he was right.

Tlat'l has seen itself conversing with a dragon with white and pale blue scales in the pool. Don't know what that's about. It is a vision of the future -- but the book also states Tlat'l is yarning for companionship with a being as ancient as itself, perhaps it means the Pool actually reflects one's inner desires? Obviously the bit was written for RP so it's pretty open ended, I don't think there's a definitive answer to this.

 

So I gave some thought of the absent nature of the Old Ones, so here's a bit of rambling:

I don't think there's ever an intended truth to the Old Ones' fate -- they are, as far as the setting is concerned, detached. They created the (WH) universe, and were undone by their own hubris to alter the nature of the universe.

In 40K, the Old Ones' tinkering with the younger species was what brought about the "birth" of Chaos as the setting has it now. They could have avoided this by "uplifting" the Necrontyr, guide them, mold them; but they refused. Whatever the reasons for their refusal, the action proved catastrophic. In fantasy, it was their own creations -- the Polar Gates, that collapsed and caused the calamity. The reason for the collapses was never given, but if we were to view it in the context of 40K, the gates likely collapsed under the growing weight of Chaos itself. Like the Webways that are now breached, the two polar portals are among those branches that are cut off to the larger universe. This would also mean the uplifting the more primitive races of the fantasy world contributed to the growth of Chaos, leading to its own isolation and eventual destruction.

IMO, the meta worldview of Warhammer is that of Order vs. Chaos, this, original authors inherited from Michael Moorcock (look at the eight-pointed star!), and early WD magazines promoted GW's own Eternal Champion miniatures too. The point is, the world is gray and grayer, reflecting the duality of Order and Chaos. When Chaos is ascendant, nature must restore Order; when Order is supreme, freedom resurges against oppression. A "champion" stands against the currents to rebalance the scale. In a way, the 40K Imperium is that champoin of Order, opperssively ordered, churning with great momentum against the chaotic nature of the universe -- all is replacable, the routine must continue.

In fact, I consider the Old Ones to be an unwitting agaent of Chaos -- Chaos not in evil, destruction, rather unexpectability. In Moorcook's view, Chaos in small doses begets creativity, freedom, and multitudes of art forms that goes against Ordered uniformality. When the meta universe of Warhammer (fantasy + 40K), all was ordered, the systems ran like clockwork, and the psyche realm was calm (Realm of Chaos: Lost and the Damned p174). Then the Old Ones came, their supremacy sparked widespread jealousy and discontent in the Necrontyr. The ensuing war saw the rapid explosion of sapient lifeforms.

The increasing chaotic creations gave rise to the powers of Chaos, which would ultimately lead to the breakdown of all order within the universe, and therefore all rules and systems that kept life itself functional in the physical world. Any surviving Old Ones, perhaps finally realising their mistakes, either left the universe, or secluded themselves in pockets of the Webway, fearing further actions would only worsen the situation. After all, to destroy Chaos would require the culling of nearly all sapience, which is not ideal for a sapien species themselves. Ultimately, life must exist between Chaos and Order, not one or the other, and the maybe the Old Ones see the futility in that exercise and simply gave up, especially after their universe-wide screw up.

One of my alternative proposal is that, just like Slaanesh's birth was born by the intricate psyches of the Eldar race, and she-who-thirsts value the souls of the Eldar most highly, the Chaos Gods that they brought above see the souls of an Old One as the most valuable. Though the C'tans would have also already been shattered, and the Necrons already asleep, since Chaos is ascendant and the Law Gods decimated at the start of the polar gate collapse, the Old Ones has no power they can call upon to resist Chaos in this universe, and going into hiding remains the only way for them to survive.

In the scope of fantasy, however, both the above makes little difference, assuming this world is one of many laboratory worlds of the Old Ones, perhaps lost in a warp storm somewhere in the universe since the War in Heaven with the Necrontyr, can receive only errant signals from the Old Ones, warped in time and perhaps already millenia out-of-date. The Lizardmen are that tragic remanants of the Old One's ordered system, struggling to find a purpose that's lost forever -- as if a forgotten neon sign along an abandoned highway, with nobody to display to, and running on the last bit of juice until it finally gives. Ultimately I think the same for every "good" faction in Warhammer, fighting a hopeless battle against an ever-deterioating system all because of the vanity of some eldritch, incoprehensible beings.

 

Interesting, so it is not a "Stargate" transportation system but a sort of magic ball type scenario to see across time (or reflect inner desires). That would make more sense as the polar gates collapsing would likely mean that any transportation system would be rendered inoperative.

An intriguing thought as to why the Old Ones might be in hiding.

A rather grim view, but ultimately proven true by the eventual destruction of the Old World.

 

Did someone just mention the Father of Darkness!

 

We used to have, and possibly still do have (think I recall them coming up in a recent source book of the 4th ed RPG) literal gods of Order worshipped mostly in the Tilea region. Aaaand... that's about all I actually know about them; they were an older concept recently reignited for the RPG.

From a meta standpoint, I imagine the lack of knowledge is partially for that openness for players to create their own armies. Nothing saying you can't create a lizardman army and declare that they are the Bulwark of the Biff the Old One (mind I'd hope players would be a little more creative with naming ancient powerful entities).

From a lore standpoint... hmm... I sort of envision them as being like the Ancients in Stargate. They seeded the planet, we all know the drill. it was the latest in the efforts, then when Chaos came they left, But some point after this latest world was beset by Chaos, they pulled a full-on ascension. They were probably the first to do so, and the other gods, if they aren't rebrandings of Old Ones, are others that have successfully managed to ascend. Ulric, Ursun, Morr, they were once mortal beings who managed to ascend. And Sigmar, obviously, being the latest to truly ascend. If we bring up Age of Sigmar, we have new gods in Naggash, Teclis and Tyrion, etc, but they aren't examples of true ascension.

This also explains why, even though they, as well as the gods of the Empire, Kislev and the like, though they are aligned with Order, they aren't full-on Gods of Order, they are something different, almost more natural, slightly more flexible in their domains, whilst still being tied to those same domains. Morr is a god of the dead, but he isn't Order or Chaos, he just is. Same with Ulric, who has multiple domains, including war, but war itself is just as much order as it is chaos, regiments have to have discipline after all, command structure is an orderly concept, but violence itself is chaotic.

It is also this flexibility that allowed the Old Ones to birth Sotek; as much as some of the slann in their rigidity might try to rewrite history to turn Sotek into an Old One, he/it is an example of the Old Ones coming up with a new plan as a reaction to the threat presented by the Horned Rat and his Skaven.

Now, I freely admit that I could be waffling out my rear end, my comprehension of the lore regarding deities in Warhammer is not my strongest point. Feel free to tell me what a fool I am and point out some official line or two that completely negates everything I just said.

 

Quite the opposite. I'm very appreciative of your insights. @Scalenex , @CaniusLanium and yourself all have FAR greater lore knowledge than I do, and I'm thankful that you guys are willing to take the time to share it with me!!