I've been reading through my Warhammer Fantasy (8th) Lizardmen army book and I've got a few questions about the Old Ones. Maybe some of you with access to more source material and greater knowledge of the lore might have some of the answers. In the army book the Old Ones are described as "god-like" beings from "beyond the stars". Going by that, they seem not to be actual gods at all, but rather a super sophisticated race of aliens. Does anyone have any more info on this? And do they have any relation to the Old Ones in Warhammer 40,000? The book also states: "As their portals collapsed, the Old Ones disappeared, their fate unknown". Do any other sources (Warhammer Fantasy, Age of Sigmar, The Old World, novels, etc.) shed any more light on this? Do we have any additional information on their fate? Also, is there any text or artwork depicting what the Old Ones might have looked like? Were the Slann created in their own image?
I am fairly certain that I spent more time pondering the Old Ones than any single writer at Games Workshop did. But then again with my own fantasy world building I start with the gods and work my way down and figure out what kind of people they worship. 99% of Fantasy world builders seem to start with the people and then figure out what kind of gods they would worship. The follow explanation uses a lot of creative Head Canon to fill in the blanks. I am going to make allusions to real world philosophy and religion. Note, I'm doing this in a purely fictional context. I am not trying to support or denigrate any religious view. ------------------------------------------------------------- There is an old philosophical belief called deism that is fallen out of favor. The gist of it is that there IS a supreme being that created everything we know but they aren't actively managing their creation. Effectively they believed God created the universe, created the universe to be self-sustaining and then let the universe run it's course. I believe this is the core of how the Old Ones work. They created the Warhammer universe but they are unwilling or unable to do much with it after their initial act of creation. I read a theory that if God is a perfect being than ANY change to God would make Him Imperfect. Creating the universe is a change, so God cannot create the universe unless the act of creating the universe is what makes God perfect. In which case the universe is an imperfection being removed, almost as if the universe is the hairball of the Almighty. The Lizardmen don't know this and only a few Slann would even contemplate this but the Old Ones are not perfectly omnipotent and omniscient, but they are damn close. Along a similar vein, the Old Ones are so close to perfection that they cannot handle even a tiny bit of exposure of Chaos without being destroyed. Whether the Old Ones accidentally created the Chaos Realm or not is irrelevant, they cannot fight the Chaos gods directly, they have to use proxies to fight Chaos. The Lizardmen, elves, dwarves, humans, ogres and halflings were created to be foot soldiers against Chaos. That why the Lizardmen call themselves the First Children of the Old Ones, they call Elves the Second Race, Dwarves the Third Race, Humans the Fourth and lump Ogres and Halflings together as the Fifth Race as the Big Eaters and Little Eaters. The Old Ones are not omniscient but they are damn close. They gave the Lizardmen as much of their future predictions as possible to be their direct agents. They created humans, dwarves and Eaters to be able to improvise against Chaos' unexpected ploys. The Elves sort of split the difference, they were given some access to the future but not much. The Old Ones also created new gods to fight Chaos. They formed these new gods out of the essence of themselves but incorporated a small bit of Chaos into them to sort of inoculate them. The problem is, the Old Ones were not perfect beings so they messed up. The elven gods didn't have enough Chaos in them so they were too rigid and unadaptable. The stress of exposure to the world's Chaos essentially made Khaine snap. Their greatest success was Sigmar. They didn't exactly create Sigmar per se. They created an entity of courage and honor that could imprint on humanity that eventually took the form of a deified Sigmar. The Old Ones really dropped the ball with Gork and Mork but at least the orcs and goblins end up killing a lot of Chaos minions. Their biggest failure was the Horned Rat, but at least they recognized this failure early and created Sotek to counter it. At least in my head canon, the Old One's appearance is irrelevant because they cannot appear to mortals without killing themselves. One big thing in Warhammer 40K is that mortal belief can shape the warp and therefore create or change the gods. In my head canon this applies to Warhammer Fantasy and the ultimate goal of the Old Ones is to help the mortal races create self-sustaining belief systems that can empower gods to defend them from Chaos. Even most Slann aren't aware of this, but the Lizardmen aren't meant to endure forever. They are meant to buy time for the other races to set themselves up.
That's a very interesting take on the Old Ones. I guess there doesn't seem to be much official lore. I like your view of the Old Ones, it fits nicely with the pre-existing fluff. I recall reading that Kroak was directly instructed by an Old One (Tepok). Slann are extraordinarily long lived, but they aren't immortal are they? Or maybe they are, which would explain lord Kroak's spirit surviving past his physical death. I thought that the Horned Rat was some sort of Chaos deity... or is that just in Age of Sigmar? And wasn't Sotek unrelated to the Old Ones; a new and separate deity? (apologies if I'm wildly off course, I'm still trying to piece this all together)
Yes, Sotek is a young deity. Sotek is not an Old One. This is canon. In my head canon, he is the BEST of the gods created by the Old One, or at least the best at not straying from his mission. In my head canon, the original Chaos deities are Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle, and Tzeentch. The Horned Rat and Hashut are newer deities that fell to Chaos. I guess they could have been created by the Big Four Chaos deities but I am a big Tolkien fan with the "Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy what has been invented or made by the forces of good." Though maybe that head canon doesn't fit for Warhammer since is anyone truly good in Warhammer? Going into the philosophical notion that God cannot directly touch the universe without being corrupted by it. In mythos/philosophy God created the angels to be his hands so they could shape the universe. In this extended metaphor, the Old Ones take the place of God and the Slann are angels. They are the Hands (or pawns) of the Old Ones.
I'd say the Old Ones of fantasy share the same real-life origin as their 40K counterparts simple because 40K started with a lot of fantasy's "genes" in them. Here's my take from my efforts to compile (and make sense of the timeline with the least alteration to the official materials as possible). So in the 1th edition WFRP rulebook (released 1986), the polar gates were already in place and the Old Ones were the "Old Slanns", and Lizardmen were supposed to be the degenerative desendants of the Old Slanns themselves, their technology and knowledge lost and retained only as dogmatic rituals. Some creatures of the void -- which were to become "demon and deities in a world deprived of the protection of the old slann" (p263.). The degenerative Slanns (what lizardmen were called) managed to bound some of the less malicious warp entities to their cause, which became their gods. The warp entities were also largely benign enough, or at least not entirely malicious, with two opposing factions on the extremes: Chaos and Order. The Gods of Law lost the Kaoskampf at the beginning, leading to a Chaos domination over the world. I write the above because in my forrays to compile my own list, I've come to find such information isn't so much abandoned in later editions, merely transformed. The timeline of the world in both 3rd edition WHFB and the 1ed WFRP actually match up to the modern timelines with errors of about a couple years. In WFRP 1e, it is also stated that the Old Slanns had already travelled across multiple stars, and learnt of the threat of Chaos well before their arrival on the planet of Warhammer Fantasy. They came to this world with a purpose, transplanting alien creatures and seemingly tinkering with genetic of the local fauna with some indescript purpose (263). It's clear their uplifting of the Elves, Dwarfs, and other races were kept in subsequent publications by GW alluding to this fact. This IMO is also inherited by 40K as the Old Ones in that setting also created multiple races for war, but this time against the Necrons. Given in passed books such as the Realm of Chaos supplements and background books like the Liber Chaotica, where chainswords were a chaos gift in both fantasy games, it was implied the two settings were connected somehow. It is therefore my speculation that, the planet of Warhammer Fantasy had been one of the Old Ones' many laboratory worlds where upon they experimented to create new warrior species or improve upon existing ones (such as Eldar/Elves) -- this, however, does not explain how the Dwarfs, Halfling and Ogres are created by the Old Ones here but in 40K they are subhumans that came about during the Long Night. The only info I know of this is from the WRFP 4th edition supplement Lustria, in which the location known as Mirror Pool of Tepok is expanded upon, said to be guarded by a Coatl and is speculated by Skinks to have connection to another dimension in which the Old Ones dwelled. There's also the the Sentinels of Xeti, which are a bunch of obselisks what apparently acted as radio arrays, as one skink priest claimed to have heard voice of the Old Ones from it (the Slanns denied this). So there's a possiblity the Old Ones still exist, somewhere, in the galaxy, just in hidding. I think the interesting question here is whether the Old Ones were the same gods of the Elves, Dwarfs, Humans etc., in different guises. In 7th edition WHFB Lizardmen army book, it is stated that the Lizardmen dieties were names extracted from sacred plaques that the species come to believe to be gods (p36). No living Lizardman have first hand experience with the an Old One -- not even the five second spawning Slanns, to which Lord Mazdamundi belong, met the Old Ones (p17.) Thus, it's far more, IMO, likely that the Old One dieties the Lizardmen worship are warp entities that represent the aspects of the Old Ones the Lizardmen attribute to and come to be transformed into their gods. The Elven pantheon, on the other hand, has had multiple extrapolations in WFRP2E and 4E as to whether they are the same as the Old Ones; of course, IRCC, one high elf Archmage denies this, but I think of it more as they have their own interpretations of the Old Ones, which they likely had some interactions with before the polar gates' collapse and come to worship these ideas as their gods. One important point I put forward is how these gods can have their avatars, such as Ariel and Orion, in the physical world, who have some permanent connection to Isha and Kurnous, apparently. It indicates to me that these gods such as Khaine, Asuryan, Ulric etc. are warp entities that connect to the psyche of a living being. This would also work in 40K as the Fall of the Eldar saw the Eldar gods killed within the Warp ("War in Heaven"), thus necessitating their status as warp creatures. WHFB 3E has one depiction of two Lizardmen, one Elf, one Dwarf, and one female humanoid (unclear if elf or human) in WHFB 2nd bestiary p10. There are some elsewhere who assume them to be the Old Ones, imply they were a group of different species. Detractors believe it's just artist depiction.
The concept that the Slann are essentially angles, also fits very nicely with the AOS renaming to Seraphon
I've being thinking a bit about this. What if instead of "perfection" we consider the Old Ones as being "ordered". Hence the the Chaos gods would be anathema to the very being of the Old Ones. A literal chaos-order dichotomy. I think this would also work with your idea of the Old Ones being unable to appear before mortals, because by their very nature mortals are chaotic, or at the very least, much less ordered than the Old Ones. It would also explain why they could interact with the Slann, who by design, are tremendously ordered beings. What if the same forces that created the Chaos Gods also created Hashut and the Horned Rat? Do either of these gods demonstrate any fealty to any of the big four Chaos gods, and if so, which one(s)? What about those halflings? Are they hobbit-like?
Thank you for that super detailed rundown of the old ones!! The links/similarities to their Warhammer 40,000 counterparts are intriguing. In relation to the Mirror Pool of Tepok, does anyone try to pass through it? Is it still functional or is it offline after the polar gates collapsed? An Old One Stargate is fascinating... maybe it leads to the Warhammer 40,000 universe . And if the Old Ones are still around, and in hiding, the interesting question becomes who or what are they hiding from?
The Mirror Pool of Tepok was on the Lustrian map in 6E army book, I don't think there had been much attributed to it before C7 got their hands on it. In C7's version, the Mirror Pool is described as thus: At some point, a Dark Elf sorceress led an expedition to the pool (sine it's north of Hexoatl and the closest LZD location to Naggaround), where she was defeated and thrown into the lake as an offering. The Coatl Tlat'l was seen at the Pool the next time the Lizardmen returned to it. Tlat'l is said to permit those it deems worth to pass to the pool (not through), the Pool is used for scrying in WD#305 so I doubt anyone was allowed to pass through it. Tlat'l is explicitly motivated by its mission to protect the pool, so something sent it (or summoned it); it will allow anyone whose current and future do not involve corrupting the world, or those whose fate it cannot forsee (it sees glimpses of the future), to look into the pool. Any it deems unworthy, it kills; such as Sir Julien of Desfleuve, who thought the Pool was the end of his Grail Quest -- well, in a way, he was right. Tlat'l has seen itself conversing with a dragon with white and pale blue scales in the pool. Don't know what that's about. It is a vision of the future -- but the book also states Tlat'l is yarning for companionship with a being as ancient as itself, perhaps it means the Pool actually reflects one's inner desires? Obviously the bit was written for RP so it's pretty open ended, I don't think there's a definitive answer to this.
So I gave some thought of the absent nature of the Old Ones, so here's a bit of rambling: I don't think there's ever an intended truth to the Old Ones' fate -- they are, as far as the setting is concerned, detached. They created the (WH) universe, and were undone by their own hubris to alter the nature of the universe. In 40K, the Old Ones' tinkering with the younger species was what brought about the "birth" of Chaos as the setting has it now. They could have avoided this by "uplifting" the Necrontyr, guide them, mold them; but they refused. Whatever the reasons for their refusal, the action proved catastrophic. In fantasy, it was their own creations -- the Polar Gates, that collapsed and caused the calamity. The reason for the collapses was never given, but if we were to view it in the context of 40K, the gates likely collapsed under the growing weight of Chaos itself. Like the Webways that are now breached, the two polar portals are among those branches that are cut off to the larger universe. This would also mean the uplifting the more primitive races of the fantasy world contributed to the growth of Chaos, leading to its own isolation and eventual destruction. IMO, the meta worldview of Warhammer is that of Order vs. Chaos, this, original authors inherited from Michael Moorcock (look at the eight-pointed star!), and early WD magazines promoted GW's own Eternal Champion miniatures too. The point is, the world is gray and grayer, reflecting the duality of Order and Chaos. When Chaos is ascendant, nature must restore Order; when Order is supreme, freedom resurges against oppression. A "champion" stands against the currents to rebalance the scale. In a way, the 40K Imperium is that champoin of Order, opperssively ordered, churning with great momentum against the chaotic nature of the universe -- all is replacable, the routine must continue. In fact, I consider the Old Ones to be an unwitting agaent of Chaos -- Chaos not in evil, destruction, rather unexpectability. In Moorcook's view, Chaos in small doses begets creativity, freedom, and multitudes of art forms that goes against Ordered uniformality. When the meta universe of Warhammer (fantasy + 40K), all was ordered, the systems ran like clockwork, and the psyche realm was calm (Realm of Chaos: Lost and the Damned p174). Then the Old Ones came, their supremacy sparked widespread jealousy and discontent in the Necrontyr. The ensuing war saw the rapid explosion of sapient lifeforms. The increasing chaotic creations gave rise to the powers of Chaos, which would ultimately lead to the breakdown of all order within the universe, and therefore all rules and systems that kept life itself functional in the physical world. Any surviving Old Ones, perhaps finally realising their mistakes, either left the universe, or secluded themselves in pockets of the Webway, fearing further actions would only worsen the situation. After all, to destroy Chaos would require the culling of nearly all sapience, which is not ideal for a sapien species themselves. Ultimately, life must exist between Chaos and Order, not one or the other, and the maybe the Old Ones see the futility in that exercise and simply gave up, especially after their universe-wide screw up. One of my alternative proposal is that, just like Slaanesh's birth was born by the intricate psyches of the Eldar race, and she-who-thirsts value the souls of the Eldar most highly, the Chaos Gods that they brought above see the souls of an Old One as the most valuable. Though the C'tans would have also already been shattered, and the Necrons already asleep, since Chaos is ascendant and the Law Gods decimated at the start of the polar gate collapse, the Old Ones has no power they can call upon to resist Chaos in this universe, and going into hiding remains the only way for them to survive. In the scope of fantasy, however, both the above makes little difference, assuming this world is one of many laboratory worlds of the Old Ones, perhaps lost in a warp storm somewhere in the universe since the War in Heaven with the Necrontyr, can receive only errant signals from the Old Ones, warped in time and perhaps already millenia out-of-date. The Lizardmen are that tragic remanants of the Old One's ordered system, struggling to find a purpose that's lost forever -- as if a forgotten neon sign along an abandoned highway, with nobody to display to, and running on the last bit of juice until it finally gives. Ultimately I think the same for every "good" faction in Warhammer, fighting a hopeless battle against an ever-deterioating system all because of the vanity of some eldritch, incoprehensible beings.
Interesting, so it is not a "Stargate" transportation system but a sort of magic ball type scenario to see across time (or reflect inner desires). That would make more sense as the polar gates collapsing would likely mean that any transportation system would be rendered inoperative. An intriguing thought as to why the Old Ones might be in hiding. A rather grim view, but ultimately proven true by the eventual destruction of the Old World.
We used to have, and possibly still do have (think I recall them coming up in a recent source book of the 4th ed RPG) literal gods of Order worshipped mostly in the Tilea region. Aaaand... that's about all I actually know about them; they were an older concept recently reignited for the RPG. From a meta standpoint, I imagine the lack of knowledge is partially for that openness for players to create their own armies. Nothing saying you can't create a lizardman army and declare that they are the Bulwark of the Biff the Old One (mind I'd hope players would be a little more creative with naming ancient powerful entities). From a lore standpoint... hmm... I sort of envision them as being like the Ancients in Stargate. They seeded the planet, we all know the drill. it was the latest in the efforts, then when Chaos came they left, But some point after this latest world was beset by Chaos, they pulled a full-on ascension. They were probably the first to do so, and the other gods, if they aren't rebrandings of Old Ones, are others that have successfully managed to ascend. Ulric, Ursun, Morr, they were once mortal beings who managed to ascend. And Sigmar, obviously, being the latest to truly ascend. If we bring up Age of Sigmar, we have new gods in Naggash, Teclis and Tyrion, etc, but they aren't examples of true ascension. This also explains why, even though they, as well as the gods of the Empire, Kislev and the like, though they are aligned with Order, they aren't full-on Gods of Order, they are something different, almost more natural, slightly more flexible in their domains, whilst still being tied to those same domains. Morr is a god of the dead, but he isn't Order or Chaos, he just is. Same with Ulric, who has multiple domains, including war, but war itself is just as much order as it is chaos, regiments have to have discipline after all, command structure is an orderly concept, but violence itself is chaotic. It is also this flexibility that allowed the Old Ones to birth Sotek; as much as some of the slann in their rigidity might try to rewrite history to turn Sotek into an Old One, he/it is an example of the Old Ones coming up with a new plan as a reaction to the threat presented by the Horned Rat and his Skaven. Now, I freely admit that I could be waffling out my rear end, my comprehension of the lore regarding deities in Warhammer is not my strongest point. Feel free to tell me what a fool I am and point out some official line or two that completely negates everything I just said.
Quite the opposite. I'm very appreciative of your insights. @Scalenex , @CaniusLanium and yourself all have FAR greater lore knowledge than I do, and I'm thankful that you guys are willing to take the time to share it with me!!
This might be helpful: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Warhammer_Wiki It's not perfect, but I've found it to be a useful resource.
They are hobbit-like in that they are small and they like food and wouldn't mind being left alone but they are lot more selfish. This is a quote from a Wood Elf to her son/daughter. ""Orcs and Goblins are our enemies, for they are are the defilers of glades and murderers of our folk. Beastmen, the children of Chaos and Long Night are our enemies. They fight us for our right to exist in the woodlands and forests. Skaven of the Underworld are our enemies, for they gnaw the roots of the world and bring pestilence and death to our forests. Dwarfs are our enemies for they cut down trees to fill their furnaces and to power their infernal machines, and many times they have waged war against us. Kegh-mon, the hairy Humans are our enemies, for they are war-like and greedy, and would drive us from our homes if they could. Many, many of them have turned to worship of the Dark Powers. Halflings are our enemies, for they clear away trees for their fields to grow crops which they then consume with unsatisfiable hunger. They would eat the whole world if they could. Elves of Naggaroth and Ulthuan are our enemies, for they have turned their backs on Isha and Kurnous, and betrayed their Elf heritage. These are your enemies, child. Know them well and keep your bow and arrow ready"." In 40k, the allegorical halflings known as "ratlings" and they are little assholes barely tolerated by the Imperium. They are sanctioned anhumans that mutated/evolved on some agricultural worlds in 40k. They are hedonists that eat and drink gluttonously and screw pretty indiscriminately with many ratlings being somewhat inbred. Among other humans, they are often seen as petty kleptomaniacs and con artists. Also viewed as lazy, compulsive liars, and frequent gamblers. Here's a 3 minute video on them. Here's a 13 minute long video on them. They are really annoying for their extreme selfishness but they are useful enough to talk normal humans into tolerating them. GW fluff writers have a love/hate relationship and often contradict each other. One writer was like "Tyranids killed most of them by destroying their homeworlds" then another was like "no, no, no, they were on a couple planets that weren't destroyed by Tyranids". In fantasy, halflings seem largely ignored.