Hey Guys and Gals, So I am thinking of starting my first fantasy army and it’s down to Empire and Lizardmen, since this is a Lizardmen forum I’m pretty sure I know what you guys/gals are going to choose. My question is not which army to choose, but whether what I want to do with Lizardmen is good for beginning players. One of the main reasons that I want to do Lizardmen is a Monster Mash army. The idea of lots of dinosaurs running around, charging into things is awesome, but what I can’t tell, from what I found online, is whether it’s a joke list or an effective one? Second part is what points level do you think the min is to play something like that 2,000? Finally third part of the question is whether the list is good to teach people the game or if I should just go a normal lizardmen route until I learn it and then can start subbing in more monsters? Thanks for any advice you can provide,
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm Hi Ron, If you want to do a monster-mash then Lizardmen are the only way to go and vice-versa if you're gonna go Lizardmen then a monster-mash is the only way to go with the release of the new edition. Stegadons, Bastiladons, Terradons, Rippers, Salamanders, Razordons, Carnosaurs, Cold Ones. Take your pick! You would be hard pressed to find a list written by me that doesn't include at least 4 of the above and my lists are no joke. No doubt there are others around these parts that would see more than 4 in their own lists. In other words: Monster mash armies don't just look great but they are a totally viable army. I personally opt for 2000 points but 2500 also works. You can go for 1000 and still get a fair few monsters in there - Minimum core of 25% still leaves room for 2 stegadons and other bits and pieces - this is just off the top of my head. In terms of teaching people: I suppose it depends what you're trying to teach. If you're teaching people the game mechanics then blocks of saurus grinding down other core infantry covers one aspect of combat. Handling skink skirmishers covers other aspects of movement, shooting etc. Ultimately however in this edition your games will often see monsters of various kinds and never simply infantry. As such to truly learn the game you have to be able to cover all the different unit types. I hope this helps -Eagle
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm Well said. The new book seems to encourage us taking some big beasties to stomp around with. The only part of our army that doesn't have access to a monster is our Core selection. In a 2,000 pt game, 500 points on Saurus and Skinks is pretty easy to attain. After that the monsters are at your disposal! And welcome to the forum!
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm While you CAN take a monster mash list I don't think it's the only way to play the new LM. In alot of ways the army still plays alot like it did before. Carnosaurs are more viable now though and Ancient Stegadons got better.
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm I'm going to take a slightly different approach. Since you are down to two armies, I assume you know the basics of both and their general strengths and weaknesses. At this point you should decide how you enjoy the game. The strength of empire armies comes from their powerful artillery and tanks, the devestating charge of their cavalry, and their infantry supporting each other to fight larger foes. They more often force the opponent to be the aggressor and try to draw them into a bad position. The strength of lizardmen armies comes from our devestating and cheap monsters, our overwhelmingly powerful magic, and some of the most dangerous and useful skirmishers in the game. Lizardmen are a balanced army that can attack or defend, and you will more often take the fight to your opponents doorstep. Now for the flaws of each army Empire troops require synergy or they fall apart. They need to support each other or they are in trouble, only the steam tank and chicken knights are able to stand alone. Terrain can often either make or ruin their day. They also have a lack of good monsters besides chicken knights which can result in a lot of free stomp attacks. Lizardmen are a harder army to manage, our new book has raised the skill cap on many of our army builds. Our monster builds are very straight forward, but struggle against certain opponents. Additionally we often play aggressively however our core troops are slower than the rest of our army which can make them difficult to manage. Both are good, both are competetive, play the way you think is more fun.
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm I know you have already decieded that it is either Empire or Lizzies... But I just wanted to say Skaven are an army not many would think of as a monster mashable army... but they are. It is more a case of Mega builders rather than dinosaurs... but seriously. You can have an army with a Screaming bell... A plague furnace... a hellpit abomination... a Doomwheel... or all of them. They also have plenty of other crazy units on smaller scales... like mini gun totling ratling guns... flamethrowers in the Lt Ripley vein as warpfire throwers and poisoned wind mortars.... How COOL IS THAT!!! Not only that... but very competitive armies regularly play all of these big units and they are not nearly as points dear as you would think meaning there are plenty for other toys... Any way... I just wanted to put the case of the rats forward... even on this rodent hating forum... lol. Good Day to you Sir. lol
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm Both armies engage in every phase of the game, although I'd argue there's more movement to the average Lizard army. My first army was Dwarfs in 7th edition, and they pretty much skip over movement and magic phases entirely. I didn't know much about the magic phase at all till I came over to lizards. One thing to consider is how you like to play this sort of game. If you are aggressive on the table, I'd pick Lizardmen because of the monsters and hard-hitting infantry options supported by strong magical buffs. If you like to play more defensively, then Empire will be fun for you, picking people apart with cannons and magic before they can get to your lines.
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm Skaven is not a good army to learn with, he'll get spoiled by all their overpowered toys and then ragequit when the new skaven book nerfs them back into line.
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm Lol. Yeah. As a Lizardmen and Skaven player I have to admit Skaven are due for a balancing, but I'm interested to see what kind of synergies Skaven may have with a new book since that seems to be a theme in 8th. Anyway, back on topic: 1.) Lizardmen were my first and favorite army. They were new in 7th when I got into the hobby. I don't think it is a joke list to run lots of dinos but your opinion on running monster mash may be different depending on what you want to get out of the game. 8th edition has become much more balanced overall as army books have been replaced and the differences between upper tier and lower tier (if there even are tiers anymore) is much smaller than it was in 7th. If you want to have fun running big dinos around, do so. If you are playing out of the BRB with the different scenarios and adequate terrain, I think monsters and canons are balanced. Lizardmen is a great army for monster mash - probably the best. Monster mash isn't going to be an auto win or lose, though you'll have tougher games against gun line armies like Empire and Dwarfs. You just need to run stuff like Chameleons and Terradons to seek and destroy those war machines. 2.) For me, 2500 is the sweet spot. It's enough to get a lot of fun stuff on the table and have a pretty good size game but you prevent some of the wonky OP stuff that can happen at 3K where players may tend to take multiples of stuff that is either over powered or under cost. I tend to enjoy my 2.5K games more because they seem like a closer match up to me. 3.) Lizardmen are one of the most versatile armies in the game (Empire are also). I don't think you have to run Lizardmen in monster mash though. Our core, though limited in choice is very good over all. Skinks with poison shots can take down the toughest of enemies and Saurus Warriors are second only to Chaos Warriors in deadliness out of the core selection. Add in a Slann with a block of temple guard, a couple heroes (Skink Priest and Scar-vet), some chaff and a hammer like Cold Ones or Kroxigor and you've got a list without any large monsters that will do very well. To me, Lizardmen are a very good beginner army because they can be very forgiving - if one things goes down, you aren't totally hosed.
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm *ahem* Anything but the Slann goes down, you mean? He's a huge chunk of points and our only lvl 4 wizard, and usually bsb too. He is the nucleus of the army, everything orbits around him and the choices you make with him; even in the newest codex where he isn't nearly as powerful, and still vies for top wizard in WHFB.
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm I'm fairly new to the game myself (though I have loved lizardmen for over 10 years) and I must say lizardmen monsters are insanely fun. The look on an opponents face when a Carnosaur or Stegadon charges their lines is a beautiful thing indeed.
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm At the risk of sending you away from LM, as an LM and Empire collector I think you should check out this thread for a look at how Empire armies are built. http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42599.0 To peruse LM goodness, I'd suggest you try the Tactica index linked in my signature, the general overview is a good place to start.
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm Sure. I guess we should say everything but the Slann, if you're running one, which in most lists you are. Tbh though, I can count on one finger how many times my Slann has died and it was because I miscast twice on turn one and he was sucked into the warp. Generally, you don't need to really worry about it but it can happen I suppose.
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm I keep watching people lose him in batreps, and I've only lost him 1-2 times to combat and those were early games. I can't stress enough how good and targeted he is. Bullseye right on his froggy forehead.
Re: Questions on Lizardmen Before Choosing First Fantasy Arm Well I'm kind of in the same position except one further on. I have an empire army but I'm looking for a change and I'm wondering whether Lizardmen are a big enough step, maybe with a lot of monsters it may be? I got the Island of Blood set to, high elves don't appeal to me, I can't stand painting them, but skaven may be ok, although I don't particularly want to paints endless amounts of models so I'm considering a monster bash type force to.