8th Ed. Razordon Shooting calculation

I am a bit confused of Shooting Rules of Razordon and Howdah Weapons.

Razordon's shooting is to roll Artillery dice to determine number of shots. Then roll for hits, then roll for Wounds.
It has 18" range.
So Questions
1) Does razordon's shooting gets affected with movement? Which is -1 penalty.
2) Does razordon's shooting gets affected with Long range? Which is -1 penalty.
3) Does razordon's shooting gets affected with multiple shot? Which is -1 penalty.
4) If a unit is consisting of more than 1 razordon (or salamander). If 1 of them rolls misfire in artillery dice, is the other roll is lost?
5) Giant Blow pipes can move and shoot: Do they get affected with multiple shot?
6) Giant Blow pipes can move and shoot: Do they get affected with long Range shot?
Bonus Question:
7) What is the meaning of Life?
Thanks for clarifications.

 

Razordon's shooting is to roll Artillery dice to determine number of shots. Then roll for hits, then roll for Wounds.
It has 18" range.
(yep)

So Questions
1) Does razordon's shooting gets affected with movement? Which is -1 penalty.
unless otherwise stated (they have quick fire rule)

2) Does razordon's shooting gets affected with Long range? Which is -1 penalty.
unless otherwise stated (so, yea)

3) Does razordon's shooting gets affected with multiple shot? Which is -1 penalty.
Only rules with the word "multishot" are effected by the rule. (so, no)

4) If a unit is consisting of more than 1 razordon (or salamander). If 1 of them rolls misfire in artillery dice, is the other roll is lost?
(No), this was a common misconception

5) Giant Blow pipes can move and shoot: Do they get affected with multiple shot?
Only rules with the word "multishot" are effected by the rule. (acutualy yes in this case)

6) Giant Blow pipes can move and shoot: Do they get affected with long Range shot?
Bonus Question:
unless otherwise stated(yep)

7) What is the meaning of Life?
42
(because it's the ultimate to life the universe and everything)

 

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) No
4) No, because rulewise a misfire only applies to the actual model firing. Besides: rulewise razordons are treated as if they all shot at once, meaning that a single misfire will happen simoultaniously with the succesful shots..meaning that the effect of the misfire takes place AFTER the shots are fired.
5) no, it dosnt have the "multiple shots" rule...it just fires that amount of D6 shots (people tend to forget that a "Giant Blowpipe" is an entirely different weapon than a blowpipe.)
6) yes
7) The plan of the old ones.................................. what else is there?

 

Nathan you editing trickster!

......oh...I guess we can now make the conclusion that 42 = plan of the old ones

 

Thank you.
so to sum up
Razordons gets movement penalty and range penalty, no multishot penalty. Misfire only affects the razordon (or salamander) that rolled.
Giant blow pipe can move and shoot, affected by move penalty and range penalty but does not get affected by Multi shot.
And meaning of life is 42 or what old ones planned or both...

 

Razordon is quick to fire, so it does not get a penalty for moving

 

Razordons are "quick to fire" so no penalty for moving. (Can't march and shot though ,as stated in the Razordon rules)

Razordons are not "multiple shots", no penalty here.

Giant Blowpipes however ARE "multiple shots (2d6)" so you, in fact, do get a penalty here.

 

1) Does razordon's shooting gets affected with movement? Which is -1 penalty.
No, they quick fire, so they do not get affected by this penetly
2) Does razordon's shooting gets affected with Long range? Which is -1 penalty.
Yes
3) Does razordon's shooting gets affected with multiple shot? Which is -1 penalty.
No it is resolved like a grape shot
4) If a unit is consisting of more than 1 razordon (or salamander). If 1 of them rolls misfire in artillery dice, is the other roll is lost?
No just that Razordon's shooting, and the skink handlers are pooled among all the Razordon's
5) Giant Blow pipes can move and shoot: Do they get affected with multiple shot?
Yes get affected, it said Multipul shots (2D6), so it uses the multiple shots rule
6) Giant Blow pipes can move and shoot: Do they get affected with long Range shot?
Yes they do get affect by long range, so a Stegadon that moves, shoots and is over 9" will not benefit from poison because it requires a 7 to hit (which is a 6 and then a 4+, then roll to wound) So shooting is only good if you don't move, or are within 9". Or tossing a cheap hand of glory on them to boost their BS, which even rolling a 1 will let the poison work.

 

I agree with Pintacko, Razordons are only good to kill chaff and they are quite an expensive tool for that. Before they were more expesive, but at least you basically hit on 4+ always (provifing target isnt behind cover or skirmisher or some spell affecting shooting).
It's a shame because they were a reall cool miniature.

 

Exactly, and the role they fill is already done by skirmishers.
Cant see a reason to put these guys to the table
Krox blocks at least have their niche but razordons.. hmm

 

Razordons fulfill a similar role as Skinks, except they are actual decent in close combat.

 

Razordons can move up 1'' from an enemy block, lock them in their place and still get a stand and shoot.

salamanders cant do that

and if the mentioned block chooses to charge and get in combat, Razordons are not necessarily certain to be annihilated

usually skinks are.

these guys CAN fight a bit, They ARE S5, and they DO get a stomp.

I have proxy'ed them a couple of times and have never been disappointed.
one rule is to never go less than 3+ though.

 

I plan on giving them a go with the same intention, perhap using walk between worlds and hand of glory to get them into position early on and boost their BS and possibly WS and I to take hold up or maybe even scare off a large block of infantry early in the game while other units march into position.

 

In my experiences with them, I've taken them in units of 3 or 4. I get them right in front of a unit they can hurt (elves, marauders, dark elf non-knights). Throw my last set of dice at the big hand of glory. On average result roll, add +2 to their ws, bs, m, I. Hit on 2+, wound easily, kill a bunch of dudes. Now since the unit probably isn't going to panic, they have a rough decision to make. Sit there or try to move away, or charge in, taking even more hits than before, and have to fight ws 5 s 5 monsters and ws4 skinks that attack first against non-elves.

It's actually pretty mean.

Then again, I've also had them run down by demigryphs and magic'd off the table. But thats because my opponents had the shenanigans happen to them before and knew what to expect. (and poor play on my part!)

 

None of the units you just mentionec comes with a 5+ skink save, nor do they have skirmisher rules, and only the stegadon posses a stomp, at the trade of 7 wounds, that will have more attacks untill it loses 2 razordons, and an average same amount of stomps with -1 to str. They cause fear like most stuff in your example and are actually cheaper than your example since you won't be needing to pay for extra handlers in large units.

They do a lot of things, and they do them rather well if i should say so. Comparing points to some of your stuff and looking at what the unit does i'd certainly say they can outperform some of those choices in some roles, while being outprformed in others.

 

A Razodon has to roll to hit and, unless a hand of glory boosts its BS, it will hit at best using BS3 50% (in close range) of its shots with an average number of shots of 5 (plus 1/6 chance of eating a skink) in the normal shooting phase and around 6 shots hitting on 5+ or 6+ depending on short or long range in the stand in shoot phase. Against some of the 1+ AS and high armour save models and units becoming common, razordon shooting just doesn't do enough , nor does skink shooting for that matter.

As I posted elsewhere this week, razors are kind of squeezed out of the army list by better options to fill the same roles:
On shooting: There is no poison, so they must roll to wound at S4. Most of the time they will be hitting on 5's and 6's unless one spends a hand of glory cast on them. That means 1 to 2 hits on average per razor and on average 1 wound which may or may not be saved. The problem is that you can end up with no shots and eating skinks to 10 shots from a single razor. A unit of 3 razors will eat one skink on average per shooting phase. I'd take S3 with poison over S4 without poison, especially with the utility of march and shoot of skirmishers allowing one to get better into range and avoid certain charges or being targetted. If you just want to stand and shoot and move and shoot to take out chaff and take on and redirect charges and movement or deter charges and screen stuff, then I think 10 skink skirmishers with javs will do better on average just becuase of the poison and guaranteed 10 shots (at least until they die). They will die faster but also have far more wounds and the same armour save. Razors have effectively 4.5 wounds with the monster and handlers rule 5+ allocation of unsaved wounds to the skinks but even that only goes so far and taking a monster reaction test at LD4 cold blooded is likely to nerf the unit's effectiveness. A skink skirmisher unit has 10 wounds with the same armour save and a parry save in combat but dies faster at T3. However, some lore of death spells witll take out razors real fast. If the razors get targetted, which they should, by magic missiles, certain direct damage spells, and certain shooting (when you don't have things like stegs or carmosaurs or basti's) then some more skink handlers wiill go down with the allocation of some wounds to handlers and one can end up with no handlers and a monster reaction test or will require a panic test if one loses just one razor even in a unit of four.

In combat, a base razor gets only 2 atacks at WS3 and S5 and maybe a stomp at S5. S5 is great but not with only 2 attacks at WS3, it is not much. The 3 handlers, while they live, have WS2 and S3. The monster and handlers rule makes the model almost equivalent to having 4.5 wounds (as long as one has the handlers alive). I really struggle with some point of refereence as to what one would pay for the razor as a unit to deal with chaff and act as a chaff/redirector unit without the shooting. Remember that one can buy in this army a scar vet on a cold one with light armour and shield for just a bit over 100 points with 4 S5 attacks at WS5 and 2 S4 attacks at WS3 with LD8 that has stupidity (which is almost a benefit at LD8 given the ITP), 2 wounds but with a 1+ AS.

All in, I might pay up to 45 points for a single razor witout the shooting given alternatives, but the best alternatives also have interesting shooting options. and the shooting abilities are probably worth enough to justify spending the points if I have the points to spend left over. There are some armies where I would pay even more points for what a razordon does, but not LM where one can have decent chaff and shooting out of the core slot and has salamanders as an alternative. Thus, a razor, in simulating game scenarions, ends up being a fair value. But does it fit a role that another unit cannot perform that is already in the army list? If I want a chaff unit or redirector unit, I can get ten wounds with 10 WS2 and S3 attacks for a lot less with a shkink cohort with a parry save, that unit has a chance of holding due to being steadfast at the end of combat when facing an unranked unit or skirmishing unit given that often 5 will survive the first round of combat. against light unitts. I would also be willing to spend 40 to 50 points on 10 skink skirmishers without shooting in the core slot. and can get 10 skink cohorts with shooting in a ciore slot for a cheap price. If I want quick to fire shooting and movement flexibility, then skink skirmishers with javs will do usually be a much better choice for the points, especially when dealing with most monsters, light cav, ligh chartiots, chaff units, and war machines. Against larger ranked units, both skink units and razor units will likely lose combat and flee or die anyway. The skink units, with ten models, have a greater chance of surviving with enough models to flee and maybe play some role later on or at least not given up VPs so easily or force a pursuit that exposes the larger unit to something I want to kill. Additionally, I can get those benefits in small packages, whereas running the razors in larger units makes them a target and too many VPs to fit in the army list given the core minimum and characters and othre units I want to/need to run to make a balanced all-comers army.

A salamander, properly placed, will often get its firee thrower shot off and there is no roll to hit and no long range penalty. But it does not get to stand and shoot. With horde units so common with elite infantry and some regen (lore of life especially being common), the utility of a mobile fire thrower is something worth considering in the army. I figure on average a sally will get 4 to 6 hits with sometimes a much larger amount and occasionally nothing. Thus, a salliy will do a lot more damage on average when it shoots but will get to shoot about half as often as a razordon will get to shoot. Any unsaved wounds leads to a panic check due to the fire thrower rules (per the LM book and BRB). Sallies are potentially winners and far superior to razors against the most competitive builds for a number of common armies [skaven (slaves, plague monks, giant rat "dart" units, and clan rats), lizardment (saurus, temple guard, and even skink units which are vulernable to panic and templates with the loose formation rules), daemons (plague bearer blocks, khorne bloodletters, and beasts), high elves (white lion hordes, spears and even archers later in the game), dark elves (corsairs, dark riders, witches, executiones , and black guard), vampire counts (zombies, skellies, ghouls, grave guard, even crypt ghouls to deal with regen), infantry heavy empire (halberdiers and great swords), tomb kings (skellies and tomb guard) bretts (flame template down a deep bret cav unit)], Against monsters and solo models (chariots, eagles, for example), sallies are only going to do at most one wound, which really limits their utility and is the way I often dealt with them playing against LM. Given the new points cost of sallies and the loss of march and shoot ability, I view them as fairly priced and useful but no longer undercosted and no longer as essential to the army as they were in the old army book but in small hunting units they can still decimate the large elite infantry blocks and light cav units many common and most competitive armies run.