Discuss! Razordons are 5 points cheaper, but take up rare points. Do they make equally good or better redirectors than 10 Skinks though?
Neither :/ But if forced to choose from only those 2 units then the Jav skinks. The razordons can't march and shoot, so there is no way they are anywhere near as good. I like blowpipe skirmishers (I prefer the situational double poison shots over the +1 save and accuracy), terradons and chameleons. Hey, a skink priest or ripperdactyl unit will do. I prefer to not buy dedicated redirectors but rather have certain units small and positioned so they can change role form damage dealer -> redirector.
Ah yes, damage dealing for sure is part of it, that's why I picked Jav Skinks and Razordons because they can both rock up, blow their load and then stand and shoot effectively.
I'd spend 15 points more and take a solo salamander, or less points and take 10 cohorts. I did run solo razordons a few times, and you get what you pay for. In one game, it finished off a hellpit Abomb. In the other 3-4 games it did nothing. At 65 points, over the course of all the games, I'd say I broke even. One thing about the Razordon though, you do have a good shot at assassinating an enemy wizard. 3 S5 and 3S3 attacks is a threat to a T3 W2 unarmored character; as long as he's in a unit that's Init 4 or slower. -Matt
2 S5 and 3S3 You are right that it will kill an enemy wizard, but then again, so would a unit of skink skirmishers about as often (1 and 1/2 average wounds versus the razordons 1 and 7/12). Swarms (again unarmoured only) and Ripperdactyls are obviously the optimal character snipers though.
Gets a stomp attack too I think. Seems like paying an extra 2 per man for the Skirmishers is worth it over a cohort. No? March and shoot without penalty on Javelins is nice and -1 to being shot at? I guess the latter is a bit pointless because you could have an extra 4 Skinks instead.
In a redirector, the inability to flee as a charge reaction becomes a pretty big tactical drawback, whilst the razordon's additional fighting ability will likely be going to waste against units far too powerful for either of them to fight. Fifteen extra points is also a significant difference in the context of a fifty point unit, so purely as a redirector, the skink cohort works better.
I never considered a Razordon as a redirector. I like to use Razordons fairly often, but not as a redirector Turns 1 and 2: I tend to use them as an interceptor against enemy fast cavalry and fast cavalry equivalents (to kill them, not redirect them). Turns 3 and 4: I tend to use them to take pot shots at things from long range. Turns 5 and 6: I send them to flank charge whatever melees are still ongoing or point them at any enemy war machines that are left. But now that I read this poll I'll have to give Razor redirectors a try out before I knock it.
Razordons are skirmishers so they can march and shoot plus: They also have quick to fire so no penalty for moving and shooting! Swiftstride from being monstrous beast should you want to charge something far away. And they have greater range than both javs and blowpipes 18" vs 12". The downside: No poison (That would've been sweet) No flee! reaction which might even void them from being used as 100% effective redirectors The odd chance of missfire... Imo they don't quite fit the same role, skinks can flee and are obviously far better at taking out monsters. A solid list should absolutely include skinks (especially as redirectors) but can manage without razordons. Sorry for using your example kroxigor01 but something you wrote caught my eye. If you want something flexible that can change from redirection to damage dealer to combo charger. Consider 3-4 razordons: March forward and pincushion stuff from turn one, redirect at leisure. Brace for charge, you always get stand and shoot due to quick to fire and you may reroll each artillery dice. In a fight they can be pretty tough, softened up by some 20:ish shots during the charge, S5, T4, W3, ++5 Skink save and stomps. Should you kill or break the opponent you have can either continue to shoot or get a good charge off with swiftstride!
You should read the rules again about march and shoot in our army book Personally I think razordons should've had armour piercing. I just dont find them that useful.
Yeah our army book overrules the skirmish rules, specifying that both Salamanders and Razordons can't march and shoot. 18" range + 6" move isn't nearly as impressive. Yeah but we were talking about character sniping. Stomp hits are randomised not directed.
Aaand suddenly razordons is put in a new, much gloomier, light for me... No idea how I've missed that one, it's so obvious.
On second thought, I doubt anyone will vote for Razordons if they aren't a contrarian. Razordons have neat things they can do, but if you can't flee, you can't be a redirector. Asking a Razordon to redirect is like asking a penguin to fly. Penguins aren't for flying, they are for swimming and providing action scenes for Morgan Freeman's narration.
If the unit is wider than the skinks, and the character is in the corner, at best the skinks get 2 S3 attacks. Razordons also bring the off chance that the unit will fail it's fear test and let him hit on 3+, and only be hit on 5+. I like the idea of a razordon for redirecting, but I'm not wasting rare points for a core job. -Matt
We'd gone over this issue in a few other threads> 1 Razordon = 4.5 effective wounds with 5+ unsaved wounds going to remove handlers and 5+ AS, T4 means harder to kill though 1 units skinks = 10 effective wounds plus a parry save on top of 5+ AS. Basically, on average, 4.5 effective wounds at T4 is comparble to 6.5 to 7 T3 wounds. This means that it is harder to use shooting or magic to clear out a unit of skink skirmishers than a single razordon to remove the "annoying" redirector unit. Razordon has one artillery die (re-rollable if stand and shoot) of shooting compared to 10 guaranteed poison shots by skinks. The razor can misfire (and eat handlers) when shooting normally, but one loses shooting as a skink skirimsher unit suffers wounds whereas the razor shoots until the last wound on it is suffered. BS3 Poison shooting at S3 tends to be superior in effectiveness to BS3 shooting at S4, especially with no multishot penalty for single shot javs., except when facing high AS (but not 1+ AS) units. Skink skirmishers can march and shoot and with javs are quick to fire with 12" range; Razors can now only move and shoot, quick to fire, with 18" range. The difference in range is not significant when one considers that as redirectors, they need to get within 12" or less of the target units to be effective rediirectors. The problem for razors and where they lost out is the inability to march and shoot limits their effectiveness as redirectors relative to skink skimishers with javs. Also, skink skirmishers are much better at screening and protecting more valuable units from BS shooting and as redirectors due to their much greater width. In combat, razors get 2 WS3 (with fear) S5 attacks and 3 WS2 S3 attacks and a stomp if the razor survives to the end of combat, whereas skink skimishers get ideally 10 WS2 S3 attacks. Only 2 WS3 S5 attacks is not enough to make the razor a really effective redirector threat of doing damage in combat and being a redirector means getting charged by something often like to kill the razor outright. Maybe razors making effective flankers for tying down units by hitting a flank and gaining net CR (giving up fewer wounds than the unit takes and gaining a flank bonus) in the process., but that is not a redirector role. Given all of the above, unless one expects to face an empire army that is high armour save and cav focuses or a similar Brett army or maybe something similar in WoC, skink skirmishers are a much better value for the points for use in shooting and stand and shoot plus redirector and screening roles. Even then, in order to make razors truly points effecient and useful in such a role they really should have AP on those barbs, otherwise you are almost better off with Krox, cowboys, or Cold one cav units for the points than the equivalent number of razors if you need that kind of hitting punch.
This is not the case. Handlers do not measure corner to corner, they can attack anything the monster is in base contact with. Also, if my reading is correct the opponent must attack the monster in combat and after the wound is unsaved it randomises.
By skinks, I was referring to skink skirmishers with javs; not the handlers. In most cases, the razordon is superior to the skirmish jav unit at character assassination. -Matt