8th Ed. Razordons vs ogres

As I am playing ogres for the first time on Friday, I thought I'd pick up 2 razordons tommorow just to give them a shot. I've seen him play twice before, and he always brings bulls, lead belchers, iron guts, and a few units of trappers. What should my razordons shoot at? (I'll also have 2 units of skirmishers and a unit of camos)

 

razordons should not be used. not even against ogres. the reason can be summarized in one sentence: they can not march and shoot!

each razordon will fire an average of 5 shots. you will usually hit on 4+, meaning you will do 2,5 S4 hits each turn. wopptie-fucking-doo!

if you use a salamander (against ogres) it will manage to hit with the template roughly 5/6 times. it is not strange at all if you do 4-6 hits with that template. hence that would average out to maybe 4 S3 hits per turn (with a better AS modifier). damage wise they are thus fairly similar BUT the salamander will cause panic tests (remember to shoot with a skink unit first to knock off one or two wounds so the salamander only has to cause one or two wounds to cause panic) and it will negate regeneration, but most importantly it can march and shoot, and will therefore not get caught and will be able to shoot more frequently.

In an all-comers list I think we all agree that salamanders are better than razordons, but I clame by the above logic that salamanders are better than razordons even against ogres. They are not good, but razordons are even worse. If you use an all-comers list you should not have razordons (use sallies instead) and if you insist in making a specific list against ogres, razordons are terrible there too. Skip both sallies and razordons in that case. If you shoot at ogres (T4, 5+ save) a razordon will do on average 1,04 kills. 10 skinks with javelins (5 more points) will do 1,48 kills. thats 42% more for the same cost!


EDIT: if you absolutely have to include razordons, shoot his most expensive infantry model. maneater > irongut > bull

 

"hit with the template roughly 5/6 times" wrong assumption,
there is a 1 in 6 miscast (you got this) and
probaly at least a one in 6 chance the template just misses.
(this you missed)

in all my fights against ogres, I have had them panic exactly zero times
from the paltry on or two wounds i had managed to inflict.

A unit of three razordons with some extra handlers is a much better bet.
oh and I would probaly shoot he lead belchers first.

 

Yes I know sallies are a bad unit I'm using them to friendly up my list as this guy only has like 15 games under his belt. This way I can take the blade of realitys and not feel guilty Ty guys

 

This post is a perfect example why you should never trust internet wisdom.


Salamanders and razordons are completely different units and should be treated as different units.

Salamanders are (very) mobile warmachines, razordons are speedbumps/redirectors. It doesnt matter they cant march and shoot, thanks to the special rules you can march a razordon right into the face of a unit and get double the amount of damage when they charge, exactly the same as if you had marched and normal unit shot and then did your stand and shoot.

The only reason razordons should get overlooked is due to salamanders being a great all comers choice and the fact that lizardmen have a multitude of cheap redirectors that can be spammed and dont take up rare points.

 

Yea the main difference is ST4 witch gets rid of 6+ armor saves.
also they fair a lot better in close combat than skinks.

Like I said field a unit of three,
you have some where between 0-30 shots
or between 0-60 shots on a stand and shoot.

They are usualy a better psycological weapon
than an actual weapon with those odds.

 

just for clarification i compare salamanders with razordons since they (usually) compete for the same spot, since alot of ppl will include a stegadon. My point is not that salamanders should be used for their pure damage output against ogres (they are indeed terrible) but that they are in fact still at least on par with razordons, making the razordons truly terribad.

If you want a redirector that can shoot, why not use skinks? as i showed above, they will do more damage for the same points and they will not use up any rare points. If you do not care about the shooting, why not use jungle swarms for half the price?

A unit of 3 razordons will indeed cause some havoc if they stand and shoot (15 hits on average, doing around 7 wounds on said ogres), but what then? you will lose the combat, you will run and you may get caught (though swiftstrider helps here). you are risking 225 points to get some wounds off a combat unit? i think not. way too risky. a single one will be cheap enough to throw away if need be, but as i showed, he has no real capacity for damage. better to use skinks again.

as mentioned, the "all comers"-perspective messes things up too. i always play all comers, since i believe that true skill lies in building an army that can handle any opponent. if you too do that you will not be using razordons since you will want sallies instead. If you do not do that, and use razordons against ogres only, then fine go ahead. do not leave them out for salamanders at least, but why not use skinks instead? they can be used as redirectors just as well, but since they can march and shoot they will actually be able to stay out of combat AND shoot if you should wish that.

 

I have played against ogres a number of times and would have to agree with LT that sallies are a far better choice than razordons, especially since it helps keep the list all comers vice tailored for only one army. Here are a few uses I have found for sallies against ogres:

1) Ogre Star (i.e. 18+ ironguts + characters) - the unit is so massive it is impossible to miss unless a misfire occurs. Aiming down the middle of the centre rank from ~7" away, the template will hit an average of ~9 ogres. This will result in 3 unsaved wounds per template hit so each sallie can effectively remove an entire ogre model every time it shoots. The added bonus of autopanic and negating regen also helps with skink shooting. Killing even a couple ogres before they hit a block of saurus or TG can make a big difference since it reduces the strength of impact hits and removes 3 x S6 attacks. The chance of a failed panic is minimal though since most ogrestars have the +1 LD banner and a BSB to re-roll.

2) Hound Hunting - although skinks are ideal for killing these disposable units of dogs, sallies can beat them readily in combat, allowing skinks to focus on higher value targets such as ironblasters, stonehorns or thundertusks.

3) trashing trappers/gnoblars - another chaff unit that sallies can crush in combat (or flame if a large unit is deployed), again leaving skinks to shoot at more important targets.

4) Leadbelcher (LB) Bunker - a favourite ogre tactic is to park these shooters in a building and then lay waste to all within range since the rules state up to 10 models can shoot from a building and the shooting rules do not differentiate between infantry and monstrous infantry. Since sallies hits are flaming each template does d6 hits that get to re-roll failed to wound rolls vs a unit in a building. This virtually guarantees at least one dead LB and a decent chance to panic them if they are outside of the general's and/or BSB range.

5) Ironblasters - Again, less than an ideal use for sallies but their mobility allows them to move into a flank charge position very quickly against these mobile cannons and thanks to the M&H rules, a cannon ball shot at them will only kill a skink 1/3 of the time. A flank charge is often successful at breaking an IB since only the ogre on top can fight (it is a chariot) as the sallies will start combat up by 2 and have a decent chance of inflicting another wound if it is a two pack. The IG is one of the most effective weapons in the ogre army IMHO and even if the sallies only tie it up for a couple of rounds, at least it isn't dropping a steggie, killing a bunch of TG or picking off a scar vet cowboy

That is about it for their uses. Definitely keep sallies away from anything with thunderstomp as they will get rapidly crushed. In an emergency or at a critical juncture, the sallies can be tossed into a combat vs regular ogres (on a flank) to help turn the tide but be prepared to lose them if too many ogres are in contact with them.

 

I have to agree with LT as well. They're utter dog crap for a rare. That being said I'm taking them as they're thinking of throwing some house rules on me to make slanns and eotgs not as good, so time to lose some for a while lol