8th Ed. reform in Combat question

[Arbite]

I foolishly allowed my Slann on the right edge of the temple guard to be engaged in combat with a flanking unit. I won combat. Slann lived through the round. I intended to reform to face the unit to take away the flanking.

I reformed the unit and placed the Slann in the new second rank as required by my army books rules and LM FAQ. My opponenet cried foul. He pointed out the BRB says no character can be removed from combat during a reform.

I told him that was true but a special rule in the Army Book overrules the BRB. As you can imagine a long discussion ensued.

What do you guys think?

 

[n810]

Hmmmm....

Where you only engaged with the one unit?

 

[TheRolfgar]

In this case the army book overrides the brb. Then slann is required to be in the 2nd rank, it is not an option for him.

 

[Arbite]

yes only engaged with one unit.

that is what i thought, book over brb

other opinions?

 

[Leokill27]

As long as when you reformed you were Front to Front with the enemy, then the slann automatically gets put to the 2nd rank. Book>BRB

Normally you cannot reform / make way characters OUT of base to base combat, this being the exception

 

[Arli]

The only exception would be if the Slann was already in a challenge. He would stay in the challenge.

 

[Arbite]

No challenge, if he had challenged I would have declined and moved back.

 

[Coatl]

im going to have to disagree a bit here. the rules for reforming state you can make one after combat (free if you won, ld test if you lost?) but characters that were in b2b cannot be removed from b2b contact. the TG's special rule involving the slann would mean if they reformed, the slann would HAVE to be placed in the second rank, thus violating that stipulation of the rules for reforming. i would say since you cannot reform without keeping all characters that are in b2b in b2b contact (because the slann would have to be placed in the 2nd rank when they reformed), then you cannot reform. yes the special rule says "the slann is always in the 2nd row for a temple guard unit", which according to your description he was when they got flanked. the rule doesn't allow you to always reform or pull your character out of b2b though .

i believe the way your seeing it is: im reforming...o look at that, my slann is in b2b (as he was prior to reform) but the TG special rule says he must be in the 2nd row...to the 2nd row he goes (special>general).

im seeing it as a whole: if i try to reform my TG, my slann won't be able to remain in b2b because of the TG special rule. since i can't perform a reform without violating that part of the process, i can't reform.

id say there is some argument for both sides. my advice: be more careful with the toad

 

[TheRolfgar]

The reason no one is looking at it that way is because the two rules would happen simultaneously. As the controlling player you get to choose the order. So you reform, perfectly legal, then your TG rule is applied and he is moved to the 2nd rank. The TG rule would not prevent you from reforming.

 

[Stonecutter]

An interesting situation that I can believe can be resolved by adhering to both rule requirements for reforming and the guardian rules. Yes, the unit can reform, but it must do so to ensure the following:

1) the slaan remains in combat since he started in combat
2) the slaan remains in the 2nd rank
3) the number of models in combat is not decreased

Given these requirements, the unit could reform by expanding models in contact with the enemy while keeping the enemy on the flank and the slaan in combat. Alternatively, the unit could even reform with its rear to the enemy into two ranks, thus increasing the number of models in combat and placing the slaan on a corner so that it was still in contact but with fewer enemy models touching it. A similar reform could likely be arranged with a flanking unit to reduce the number of enemy models in contact with the slaan so that the front rank was out of contact and the enemy contact started at the border between the slaan and the 4th rank. So long as all rule requirements are met, then I would see any reform as permissible while any reform that violated any of the rules would not be permitted.

 

[Arbite]

The reason no one is looking at it that way is because the two rules would happen simultaneously. As the controlling player you get to choose the order. So you reform, perfectly legal, then your TG rule is applied and he is moved to the 2nd rank. The TG rule would not prevent you from reforming.

+1

 

[BEEGfrog]

Doesn't matter if the rules happen simultaneously if one makes the other break the rules then neither can happen. You cannot make a reform that takes a character out of combat, even if the character is a slann.