What if i refuse a challenge with my unit champion? If i refuse with a character he is forced to the back of the unit and be isnt able to attack, but what if i refuse with a champion? So people say he isn't forced back and i thought he is ! But the brb, section refusing a challenge, says that i'm forced to the back!! Regards,
I believe the rules state that when you refuse a challenge, the challenger can choose which of your characters get sent to the back. You don't get to choose. This can leave you with a killy character at the back and a wizard fighting in the front. Ray
See the thing is: You dont challenge a specific character and You dont refuse with a specific character What happens is: Player A: Calls a challenge with a character The challenging character yells out to the enemy asking for a worthy opponent. Player b has now two options: He can accept with a character or champion and the challenge is met. The challenger got his foe OR He can choose to NOT meet the challenge. Its not just a single model that refuses, its just that no one has the guts to step up to it. If the later is the case, the reason the challenger gets to pick who goes to the back is because he simply picks an enemy for himself "YOU!! YOU SHALL FIGHT ME!" to which the frightened fella falls back in the ranks to be protected by his men. This lowers morale with the troops though "if our great hero cant take on their great hero..we are on our own" thus no leadership from him. it is true that if only a champion is available he can refuse a challenge with no consequences. His fellow troops simply dosnt expect it of him.
But would he not be sent back like any other character? Unit champs often benfit from +1 attack and/or other bonuses. Sebbs
should or should not: it isnt in the rules.. Champs cant be send back. if you want a fluffy reason well then I guess he just dosnt have the authority to call for protection.
Alright I had no idea. That's good to know I guess! Not sure if this is of much use, more often than not you want your champ to soak up attacks from blender lords and other nasties.
To make the situation more specific, i got challenged by an enemy character and i only have a champion but i refuse! The rules say specific character, but a unitchampionis a character if i'm right.. unit type Infantry (character) for example. Seconly, the rules don't say that there's an exception for champions...
The rules do specifically say that champions can't be picked out to be sent to the back. This evening, if I have time, I'll find the specific BRB page and event quote it for you. In the meantime, please re-read the wording in the paragraph(s) that talk about declining a challenge. That is where it is, iirc.
I'll save you the trouble BRB p102 Refusing a challenge (Boo! Hiss!) paragraph, the challenger cannot nominate a unit champion to retire
Well there is the sentence i was looking for, thanks a lot.. Reading is not my piece of cake and because is it cropped between the sentences i couldn't make the link in after reading.. However it's all clear now! Now i have to convince a friend of mine.. He tries to convince me that i understand it wrong..
Why would you refuse a challenge with a champion? If your scared it'll die, the damage done to your unit by whatever character you were scared of will be worse. I suppose you could refuse if you knew you were facing a double charge to the front and you wanted to accept the other blocks challenge? I dunno. Maybe someone could help me out here, i'm having trouble imagining a scenario in which you'd want to refuse a challenge with your champion when it's the only character in the unit. I suppose if the two fighting blocks only had unit champions that would make sense. /shrug.
Dosnt some champions have abilities that you would want to keep? isnt there a unit in Vampire counts whose champion has a specific scream attack? If you would want to keep that...or if they carry a magic item that benefits the combat indirectly.
If you accept a challenge you might also save guard your enemy character from harm. As in a challenge your unit can't allocate attacks on it. Your unit and the ammount of attacks are maybe able to kill that character while your lonely champion can not.
Thanks StealthKnight for the reference. @Putzfrau Ogres are a classic example of declining a challenge to increase damage. A solo character charges an Irongut unit and for whatever reason (usually his buddies from other units didn't make it in too), he needs to get into the safety of a challenge. He issues - the Ogre player declines - 19 Attacks at Str 6 are now coming his way (instead of 4), and the Ogres may suffer some damage, but they likely kill many characters like that in return.
Just a few more tidbits to keep in mind, relative to this- 1) Champions do not act like "other" characters because...they are not characters at all. There are some things that characters can do that champions can also do, but that doesn't make them characters any more than a helicopter's ability to move in the air makes it an airplane. Champions are not characters. 2) In challenges, champions that don't accept are also not really refusing. They are simply not participating in the process. A player has the option to offer up his champion to accept a challenge, but if he does not do so, the champion is not "refusing" at all. He's just sort of hanging out with the troops, being thankful he's not all that important.
That's a good example. I dont play with/play against ogres very often, but that makes a lot of sense. Just another question, how are you getting 19 attacks back on this character? Ogres are on a pretty big base, correct? How likely is it that you're going to get multiple ogres swinging back against a character that most likely is on a smaller base than an ogre is? I can see supporting attacks, but 19 attacks? That seems like a lot to get onto a small base.
You are right about that, not every attack will hit your character, up to 13 attacks is possible! But when fighting a single scar-veteran cowboy, they will lose! Often you run a 1+ rerollable cowboy, so 4+ rerollable.. He hits you on 4+ and wounds you on 3+.. I compare to my scar-veteran cowboy (CO, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone) Statistically: Your attacks: Scar-Veteran: 4 attacks (3+ to hit, PF on 6+) --> 3.111 hits (2+ to wound) --> 2.593 (no armoursaves, possibly parry 6+) --> 2.160 wounds Cold one: 2 attacks (4+ to hit) --> 1 hit (4+ to wounds) --> 0.5 wounds (6+ Sv, possible parry 6+) --> 0.347 wounds 2.160+0.347 = 2.51 wounds so 2-3 wounds! Without challenge 13 attacks (4+ to hit) --> 6,5 hits (3+ to wound) --> 4.333 wounds (25% unsaved (50% chance you roll a 4+ and multiplied by 2)) --> 1 wound! With challenge 4 attacks (4+ to hit) --> 2 hits (3+ to wound) --> 1.333 wounds (25% unsaved) --> 0.333 wounds That means that you can last for 1 round of combat and you can deal 4-6 wounds, without challenge you would suffer 1 wounds, witht mostly no wounds.. Good reason to decline challenge if i calculated well! However you don't have to charge a cowboy into a unit of ironguts! Bulls are much easier for you to deal with!
In the example I was thinking about, I imagined it was a WoC character (but am looking back and have noticed that I didn't describe that specifically). Most WoC players tend to mount their models on Monstrous Steeds of some kind (Daemonic being the favorite), so I was assuming 40-50mm base widths. However, more relevant to Lizardmen would be a CO Cowboy, who is 25mm wide. In the Ogre example I gave, a declined challenge would only yield 13 attacks for the ogre unit (2 wide + 2 supporters @ 3 attacks each + 1 additional attack from the champ). Again, in my simplified example I was talking about a situation where a Solo-character made it into the front of a unit of Ironguts. Not a situation someone would try for, but multi-charges get failed - by some but not all - all the time.
I like to think of unit 'champions' as imperial guard sergeants. They can decline a challenge because 1) he isn't that important 2) he is busy, full time, keeping the privates and rank and file fighting with discipline. He's part of the color guard, after all. He isn't a commisar - a true Leader of Men who is expected to show up and fight. If he refuses, has the emperor forsaken them? Is it heresy? The men won't view him as a leader.
A Wizard who is retired to the back still can cast, right? So if a unit of TG with a Slann refuses a challenge, and the Slann gets retired to the back row, the TG would still be stubborn, and the Slann would still do magic normally, right?