Well ? is it worth the points ? I've been looking and for a single use item it just doesn't seem great. Any idea's/tactics ?
I consider using it in games below 2000 points where I have little else that can reliably be used against chaos knights or things like that
It's a nice spell and not having to roll for it is convenient. Having a Power Level of 6 means that the enemy needs to roll 2 dice to effectively counter it. Having a 25 point cost and being an Arcane item makes it worthless except in very, very specific circumstances. If you take the Rod of the Storm, you arent able to take Plaque of Tepok or Diadem of Power. These two items are the same point cost and significantly more helpful through the entire game. Lets do a Pro vs Con on this item: Pro Power Level 6 makes dispelling more difficult No need to roll dice 25 points means you still have some room to take another item on a Skink Priest No Armor Save can be useful against a couple armies No range limitation Con Arcane item - prevents other, more powerful Arcane items from being taken Only 1D6 - the greatest potential this spell has is 6 kills and the average damage it will do is 2.3 Wounds (Average die roll is 3.5 times 66% chance to hit a Toughness 3 target. 1.7 Wounds against Toughness 4 targets like Chaos Warriors) 25 points - you've spent half a Skink Priest's carrying capacity on something that will only be used once and to small effect (on average) Frankly, if the GW team had actually run the numbers, they would have made this item 30 or 35 points and simply a Bound Spell, not Single Use. Uranon's Thunder Bolt has really low average damage.
You should broaden your analysis snowywlf, expectation is a useful tool to use. Also consider the target. Eg for chaos knigts at 45points/knight 1 kill (quite likely) and it will have more than paid for itself.
What does that mean? And you are right, if you are looking at it from a point to point comparison, you can get your points out of it if you are careful about the use. If you are really lucky it can even be useful. Still, the Diadem of Power or the Plaque of Tepok are going to give you better results most of the time. I could see using it in a low point battle, something were you cant bring a Slann. Without a Slann our magic is fairly lackluster, and this could give you a bit of punch (once).
Argh I'm talking nonsense. I meant to type "expectation is a useful tool to use, but..." Expectation is the calculation you just did, and the most useful, but I find in situations like this it helps to break it into probability of inflicting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 wounds against T4 or T3, then you can see the spread. I'd be more coherent but I've got flu and forget what I'm typing mid-sentence and that's also why I'm not going to do the stats I'm talking about here now.
Inerestingly enough, Diadem of Power would be much more difficult to equate into points by comparison of RotS. With the incredible unpredictability of magic DoP could theoretically pay for itself many times over, by helping prevent spells which would cost you large chunks of points.
Yeah I don't think it is worth it. I have limited use for once off items, and even less so when they take my arcane slot and stop me taking other arcane items. The advantage overlooked so far and mentioned in other threads is that it will force the opponent to save a dice or two to dispel it but they will never know when it could come. If they save no dice, hit them with it. If they save dice, don't use it and you have more freedom with your other spells. Does that make it worth its cost? Maybe, probably not. I agree with the suggestion that it shouldn't have been one use only. Its power level would need to decrease one or two, but I am getting tired of all the nice looking but essentially over-priced and under-used one use only items. Items are far more worth taking if they last the whole battle rather than just once.
Seriously? You guys think this item is bad? It kills chaos knights. That's all it ever HAS to do, there's pretty much not a darn thing in the army that is effective against chaos knights (and blood knights) except magic, and all too often WOC have decent magic defense since their caddies can beat face and have 2+ armor. Unless I'm running the toad by himself or an engine by himself (I.E. not taking a lot of magic) I never take the diadem because it gives you no net increase in the number of dispel OR power dice. For 65 points you can just get another skink priest and get +1 to both. In my tournament list I took a whole 'nother skink just to carry this item, because it is THAT GOOD. Killing 1.7 chaos knights is unbelievably amazing because a fully upgraded unit of Knights (with Khorne or Nurgle Mark and some magic Banner of Frenzy or War Banner) can just straight up trash a unit of Saurus, and then roll into whatever is behind it. Killing two of them makes the difference between getting trashed and losing by a little. Further, second sign of Amul can improve this spell greatly, and I always make sure to use amul as my first spell in a turn.
Exactly what I said and think, but told much more forcefully. As my main opponent is WOC I know the fear of chaos knights. Other armies such as Brettonia, Empire, VC, DE and more I'm sure often have similar units to worry about, and most things with have 15+point models to use it on which would probably get your money back if there are no cold one knights etc. Wonderful idea that I had not considered, I will most definitely remember this. Amul can be pretty handy for things like this or impact hits. I've not yet had the pleasure of using it though.
I don't see anyone in the thread saying that RotS is a "bad" item. I think that its worth, in terms of points varies depending on a host of factors. I see people saying that its use is very situational and others that say its not worth the points in comparison to other arcanes. In this situation, both are valid viewpoints. I frequently face WoC and the knight units are definitely a problem for me every time. I have to come up with creative ways of getting them away from important stuff and generally running distraction on them, until I am ready to face them. I'd say that if your other arcane slots are used up on the better items or you know you'll be facing a unit like WoC knights, this item is definitely worth its points. There are still other situations (opponents, army lists, etc) that make it not worth the points in comparison to the other arcanes. You won't catch me substituting RotS on my main caster for another arcane that serves my purpose better, but if I do have a utility priest and I know I'm going into a situation where it can gain its points back, it is capable of doing an exceptional job (even more so when you factor in Second Sign). Remember, no one is saying its a bad item. I'm reading; not worth the points (for my situation), has a circumstantial use.
Barotok, i think they are say that it is such a good item that should always be taken. i have never used myself, but i know the fear of Chaos knight just as much as they do. They are making a valid point, which i may have to consider myself.
Sure if you are facing chaos knights and manage to get the item to work without being dispelled it is worth it... But against most armies it probably won't have such an obvious and viable target. Plus when you think about it, you can take a power stone for less points and still have the arcane slot spare to cast the same spell at a higher level. I guess you do need to roll the spell, but still. Oddly, when I play against chaos I find the warriors do more damage to me and are scarier than the knights. I can whittle down a knight or two and make their unit a lot less useful, but then the warriors hit and carve anything in their path.
This item *is* magic. It has the exact same counter-ability as any other magic. That's a great idea. If you get lucky enough to roll Second Sign of Amul, that would make a great combo.
That's not how magic works, your don't buy like a 50% resistance to magic for your army, you buy static numbers of dice, and once you run out of that and scrolls, everything just gets through. Luck has nothing to do with it, Toad can get second sign every time. I am of course assuming that you are taking a toad because he's the best thing in any army ever. Anyone who doesn't take toad is shooting themselves in the foot or jacking to carnosaur (which I respect completely) Toad is kinda like a level 6 wizard most of the time, is your BSB if your smart, is not just the best general in our army, but the best general that warhammer HAS EVER HAD. http://www.remanlegions.com/Math-Hammer.pdf Gee, how much do other armies pay for a level 4 wizard... 250 points with no items? okay, toad is only a bit more then that bare. How much do other armies pay for a BSB with a magic banner? About 125 most times right? toad does that for 50 and is tankier then most BSBs How much do other armies pay for a leadership 10? You gotta cough up about 200 points, or 120 if your empire (which is also awesome). Toad is essentially leadership 10.6 (he's not quite good enough to take leadership to 11, only K.I.S.S. has leadership 11) Toad does this for..... FREE!!?!?!? How much extra is it to make a unit immune to psych and stubborn when you join them, highborns can grant stubborn (but they are expensive and flimsy) A templar grand master can give immune to psych, but he's more expensive then a general (and a bit beatier) Toad does BOTH....FOR FREE?!?!?!!? My god, toad displaces like 575+ points of command structure, and though he may not contribute any attacks like these other guys do he makes up for it by being hard to kill. (he gets a 4+ ward save, which costs about 45 points typically, and gets it ....FOR FREE!?!?!?!) He also cheats like a mofo in the second ranks, and you can't hide from his spells. Oh, and with a 50 points upgrade he knows 6 spells and generates maybe a bit more then 6 PD. Toad will pretty much by himself chunk enough pew pew at the enemy that he can soak most of their DD by himself, one or two skink priests can then run amok and guess what.... USE THIS ITEM. (I also like using the blood statuette and some power stones all in the same turn, because it is most effective with magic to throw it all in one turn to get everything through. It's called an alpha strike, and it's a classic military maneuver, because wearing down their resistance over 6 turns is not as important as pewing slightly less all on turn one or two to weaken them right before they get to you.
Ok, I think you still arent getting the issue here. The Bound Spell can be dispelled. It can be countered. It is subject to Magic Resistance. If you are having problems with your Magic phase, this Bound Spell suffers the same limitations. It does bring the benefit of allowing you a 'free' cast, meaning you dont have to use Power Dice and the opponent may be out of Dispel Dice or Dispel Scrolls. The issue remains: It has the exact same counter-ability as any other magic. And waste the Slann's magic on Lore of Heavens? I'll pass thank you. There are much better Lores he can take than Heavens. (Unless you bring Tetto'eko, that could be a potent combo.)
One of the things that every player here that favors the item states is that the item kills chaos knights. I have to ask everyone, how often do they play against chaos? Yes, there are some times it would be great, but most of the time it is below average. If you are going to play chaos, sure bring it. Yet, if you are making an all comers list it is better to include something like a power stone. Its cheaper and it gives you basically the same amount of damage yet you now have the choice as to what spell you are going to use with it.
I have the pleasure of killing my girlfriend's WoC warband any evening I'd like. Needless to say, I face a lot of knights and warriors. I've said it once and I'll say it one more time, the use of this item is highly situational. Does it fire bolts of lightning all by itself, dominating anything it touches? Absolutely not. Is there a place for it in a magic heavy list? Absolutely! It is great for contributing to an alpha strike. I would say that using the RotS is dependent on how many spells you're pushing through the opponents dispell dice each turn. In the right situation it can be devastating. If you're counting on it as your only arcane item, you'll most likely be dissappointed especially if you opponent has any sort of magical defense.
I play chaos with knights 2/3 of the time ^^ In fact, every army I play or have the potential of playing (ie armies that people I know have - I'm not into tournies) has a chaos knight-esque unit in it that is both very valuable per model, and hard to kill due to 2+ or more armour (cold one knights, brettonian knights, the good empire knights). Wylf I think in fact you are not getting donkey's point ^^. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with him but his point was that it is effective particularly when used in a blitz round where you let everything fly, something I had been planning to do when I get my slann too (a power stone and the rod and jaguar warrior). With the armies I play against I know I'll have all their scrolls out but round 4 or so (unless the dice gods are truly against me) and can out all of their DD each round if needed.