Discussion Seraphon Lord Kroak glyphs

[Imrahil]

Hi all,

A post on glyphs in a painting thread reminded me on the discovery of the translated glyphs on the Astrolith bearer and my attempt at translating the glyphs on the Realmshaper Engine.
This sparked a thought: The new Lord Kroak model must have some glyphs as well, would GW have taken the effort to make something of them?

Here is a close up from the top part of the model (borrowed from @Tyranitar 's blog, because the picture is sharper than the one on the GW site )



The circle consist of 14 glyphs:



Quite some of them are not a part of the 'common' Lizardmen/Seraphon language. Also the some of the glyphs that I do recognize are somewhat different or rotated.

It looks like GW didn't put the effort in...

Any Thoughts?

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Just A Skink]

Hi all,

A post on glyphs in a painting thread reminded me on the discovery of the translated glyphs on the Astrolith bearer and my attempt at translating the glyphs on the Realmshaper Engine.
This sparked a thought: The new Lord Kroak model must have some glyphs as well, would GW have taken the effort to make something of them?

Here is a close up from the top part of the model (borrowed from @Tyranitar 's blog, because the picture is sharper than the one on the GW site )

View attachment 119369

The circle consist of 14 glyphs:

View attachment 119372

Quite some of them are not a part of the 'common' Lizardmen/Seraphon language. Also the some of the glyphs that I do recognize are somewhat different or rotated.

It looks like GW didn't put the effort in...

Any Thoughts?

Grrr, Imrahil

Unfortunately, I think these might be more symbolic rather than using the WHFB Lizardmen alphabet to write something. In fact, most of these might be pulled from Total War. I think the symbols stood for various temple-cities/factions, yes? There are a few that I think could be old Lizardmen glyphs.


Hexoatl (#1 or #10)

Tlaxtlan (#2 or #12)

Ghosts of Pahaux (possibly #4, but unlikely b/c no "snake head" shape on model)

Sentinels of Xeti (#5)

Tlaqua (#6)

Zlatlan (#8)

Mage Priest (possibly #9 as a variation of the glyph)



Southern Sentinels (possibly #11)

Prophecy (possibly #12 as a variation of the glyph b/c it looks like a slight depression where the "eye" would be on the model)



Xlanhuapec (#14)

 

[Just A Skink]

Chotec (possibly #11)

 

[Just A Skink]

@Imrahil Yes, it looks like GW lifted the images almost exactly from TW. Check out this bigger image of Mazdamundi.

EDIT: That said, it seems GW has a more "serious" direction these days. Overall, I think that's fine, but I miss them taking the opportunity to do things like write a message in Lizardmen glyphs.

 

[Imrahil]

Unfortunately, I think these might be more symbolic rather than using the WHFB Lizardmen alphabet to write something. In fact, most of these might be pulled from Total War. I think the symbols stood for various temple-cities/factions, yes? There are a few that I think could be old Lizardmen glyphs.


Hexoatl (#1 or #10)

Tlaxtlan (#2 or #12)

Ghosts of Pahaux (possibly #4, but unlikely b/c no "snake head" shape on model)

Sentinels of Xeti (#5)

Tlaqua (#6)

Zlatlan (#8)

Mage Priest (possibly #9 as a variation of the glyph)
View attachment 119382


Southern Sentinels (possibly #11)

Prophecy (possibly #12 as a variation of the glyph b/c it looks like a slight depression where the "eye" would be on the model)
View attachment 119383


Xlanhuapec (#14)

Thanks, these make a lot more sense!

Seems like a Stone of Unifying for all Temple-cities under the reign of Lord Kroak

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Imrahil]

@Imrahil Yes, it looks like GW lifted the images almost exactly from TW. Check out this bigger image of Mazdamundi.

EDIT: That said, it seems GW has a more "serious" direction these days. Overall, I think that's fine, but I miss them taking the opportunity to do things like write a message in Lizardmen glyphs.

Nice research! Mazdamundi has quite more so I see.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Sudsinabucket]

The circle consist of 14 glyphs

Aren't there 14 known constellations? So each wouls/could reference a known constellation with Kroak being the Center of them all

 

[Killer Angel]

It looks like GW didn't put the effort in...

here's the winner, ladies and gentlemen!

 

[Tyranitar]

Hi all,

A post on glyphs in a painting thread reminded me on the discovery of the translated glyphs on the Astrolith bearer and my attempt at translating the glyphs on the Realmshaper Engine.
This sparked a thought: The new Lord Kroak model must have some glyphs as well, would GW have taken the effort to make something of them?

Here is a close up from the top part of the model (borrowed from @Tyranitar 's blog, because the picture is sharper than the one on the GW site )

View attachment 119369

The circle consist of 14 glyphs:

View attachment 119372

Quite some of them are not a part of the 'common' Lizardmen/Seraphon language. Also the some of the glyphs that I do recognize are somewhat different or rotated.

It looks like GW didn't put the effort in...

Any Thoughts?

Grrr, Imrahil

Really cool idea and Investigation! You could have used one of the more finished photos haha

 

[Imrahil]

Really cool idea and Investigation! You could have used one of the more finished photos haha

Hahaha lol, I know, but somehow this one showed more sharp edges and clearer glyphs

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Lord Gradoc]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I think you were onto something when you thought they were city glyphs - each of the glyphs represent one of the major temple cities as shown on page 39 of the 7th [not 6th!] edition Lizardmen book - only Itza is missing and Tlanxa's symbol seems to have been changed (maybe from a single wing to a double?) [See photo posted below]. The temple city glyphs also match the symbols on the outer ring of Mazdamundi's - this time including the glyph for Itza as well (the four glyphs in the inner ring represent the old ones: Tepok, Tlazcotl, Chotec, and also Sotek).

 

[Lord Gradoc]

Here's what I was referring to:

 

[Imrahil]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I think you were onto something when you thought they were city glyphs - each of the glyphs represent one of the major temple cities as shown on page 39 of the 6th edition Lizardmen book - only Itza is missing and Tlanxa's symbol seems to have been changed (maybe from a single wing to a double?) [See photo posted below]. The temple city glyphs also match the symbols on the outer ring of Mazdamundi's - this time including the glyph for Itza as well (the four glyphs in the inner ring represent the old ones: Tepok, Tlazcotl, Chotec, and also Sotek).

Here's what I was referring to:
View attachment 129501

No problem at all, thanks a lot. I forgot about this page. It is from the 6th edition battletome, right?
These form the complete the circle

#1: Hexoatl, city of the Sun
#2: Tlaxtlan, city of the Moon
#3: Xahutec, city of Echoes
#4: Huatl, the Awakening
#5: Tlax, city of Ghosts
#6: Pahaux, city of Ash
#7: Itza, the First city ?
#8: Chaqua, city of Gold
#9: Quetza, the Defiled
#10: Axlotl, the Star city
#11: Oyxl. the Eternal city
#12: Xhotl, city of Destiny
#13: Chupayotl, the Sunken city
#14: Xlanhuapec, city of Mists

It might be that the 7the glyph is a missculpted golden mask of Itza, or a very misinterpreted wing for the symbol of Tlanxla, city of the Sky.

So the link with the glyph is truly Lustria and not WH Total War, that makes me at least a bit happy.

Grrr, !mrahil

PS: somehow my brain wants to make a sentence out of the named cities, because why are they in this order?

"the Sun and the Moon Echoes the Awakening of Ghosts and Ash. the First Gold was Defiled and the Star of Eternal Destiny is Sunken in Mists"

 

[Lord Gradoc]

Actually I was wrong - it's actually from the 7th Ed Lizardman army book and I can't find my 6th Ed one though I'll keep looking as it has a map of the Southlands that the later editions lack; my suspicion is that #7 might refer to a major temple city in the Southlands...

 

[Just A Skink]

No problem at all, thanks a lot. I forgot about this page. It is from the 6th edition battletome, right?
These form the complete the circle

#1: Hexoatl, city of the Sun
#2: Tlaxtlan, city of the Moon
#3: Xahutec, city of Echoes
#4: Huatl, the Awakening
#5: Tlax, city of Ghosts
#6: Pahaux, city of Ash
#7: Itza, the First city ?
#8: Chaqua, city of Gold
#9: Quetza, the Defiled
#10: Axlotl, the Star city
#11: Oyxl. the Eternal city
#12: Xhotl, city of Destiny
#13: Chupayotl, the Sunken city
#14: Xlanhuapec, city of Mists

It might be that the 7the glyph is a missculpted golden mask of Itza, or a very misinterpreted wing for the symbol of Tlanxla, city of the Sky.

So the link with the glyph is truly Lustria and not WH Total War, that makes me at least a bit happy.

Grrr, !mrahil

PS: somehow my brain wants to make a sentence out of the named cities, because why are they in this order?

"the Sun and the Moon Echoes the Awakening of Ghosts and Ash. the First Gold was Defiled and the Star of Eternal Destiny is Sunken in Mists"

I think you're on the right track with glyph #7. The ring follows that list of cities too closely to not match, so I surmise it's an updated glyph for Tlanxla. I think GW must have changed the symbol for Tlanxla (possibly to make it easier to sculpt?). Kroak's actual mask stands in for the glyph of Itza (first city as he is first among Slann).

 

[Just A Skink]

Here's what I was referring to:
View attachment 129501

I was in a bit of a rush today, but I meant to say that this was a great find @Lord Gradoc. The cities match the ring of glyphs perfectly.

 

[Lord Gradoc]

On closer inspection, it appears that each of the glyphs on the new Lord Kroak aren't all level with each other (see photo); there are three that are raised higher than the others (marked with a '+' below) and three that are lower (marked '-').
Below, in brackets, are the status of each city as per the last 8th edition (8e) Lizardmen Armybook, mainly from the descriptions on p24 and the map on p25).
Note that the book also states that sometimes individual slann will temporarily settle in the ruined cities for optimum meditation (8e p22) so it is possible that slann may have been present in those cities.
I will discuss what happens to each of the temple cities in the End Times under *spoilers* in a following post along with my theory of what the state of each of the glyphs mean.

#1: Hexoatl, city of the Sun [Living city, home to Mazdamundi (8e p53)]
#2: Tlaxtlan, city of the Moon [Living city, home to Tetto'eko (8e p57)](-)
#3: Xahutec, city of Echoes [Abandoned due to chaos but has a permanent "strong guard around its perimeter" (8e, p24)
#4: Huatl, the Awakening (+) [Was in the process of being refounded (Ibid)]
#5: Tlax, city of Ghosts [Ruined, Haunted - unclear if there were still lizardmen present (Ibid)]
#6: Pahaux, city of Ash [Repeatedly refounded then abandoned - six times(Ibid), spawns chameleon skinks upon Oxyotl's return (8e p27)]
#7: Zlatlan [Uncontactable - status unknown]/Tlanxla [Ruined during Great Catastrophe(8e p9)otherwise unmentioned]/ Itza [Living city]?
#8: Chaqua, city of Gold (-) [Abandoned, plague still too potent to return]
#9: Quetza, the Defiled (-) [Abandoned, crushed by Tettoéko's comet (8e p27); unfit to be refounded but snakes beneath keep skaven in check]
#10: Axlotl, the Star city [Partially reconsecrated, guarded by chameleon skinks]
#11: Oyxl. the Eternal city [Great Temple still attended by Skink Priests] (+)
#12: Xhotl, city of Destiny [Ruined during Great Catastrophe; Kroq-Gar and his mount Grymloq are the only survivors (8e p51); no mention of its current status]
#13: Chupayotl, the Sunken city [Slipped into the sea and its slann were slain (8e p226)]

 

[Lord Gradoc]

My theory is that the state of each of the glyphs represents the current state of each temple city: the lowest represent the cities that were lost, the middle represent the city ships that were evacuated, and the raised represent those cities that were saved entirely during the events of the End Times.

Spoiler: Spoilers from the [I]End Times: Thanquol[/I] here

#1: Hexoatl, city of the Sun* [slann and skink attendants evacuated]
#2: Tlaxtlan, city of the Moon (-)** [destroyed]
#3: Xahutec, city of Echoes*** [The beginning off Thanquol describes a constant tide of daemons pouring through the rift, contained only by Kroq-Gar and endless reinforcements (p14) but later the mind-walking slann find it "strangely becalmed" (Thanquol, p51)
#4: Huatl, the Awakening (+)**** [Was in the process of being refounded]
#5: Tlax, city of Ghosts*** [Ruined, Haunted - unclear if there were still lizardmen present]
#6: Pahaux, city of Ash*** [Setting for Tehenhauin's failed stand against the skaven but the rats had then moved to Itza (Thanquol p156-57]
#7: Zlatlan [Unknown]***/Tlanxla***/ Itza* [slann and skink attendants evacuated]*****
#8: Chaqua, city of Gold (-)** [Abandoned, plague still too potent]
#9: Quetza, the Defiled (-)** [Abandoned, unfit to be refounded but snakes beneath]
#10: Axlotl, the Star city*** [Partially reconsecrated, guarded by chameleon skinks; home to the slann known as the "Hermit Lords of Axlotl, according to the 7th ed armybook (p30)
#11: Oyxl. the Eternal city (+)**** [Great Temple still attended by Skink Priests]
#12: Xhotl, city of Destiny*** [Ruined]
#13: Chupayotl, the Sunken city*** [Submerged]
#14: Xlanhuapec, city of Mists (+)**** [Living city] [damaged and spawning pools irreversibly contaminated by Skaven; some ancient wonders destroyed, but the pyramid-temples and the slann with them survive (apart from Lord Hua-Hua)] and the city is cleansed of enemies by Kroq-Gar and his armies (Thanquol, p40-45).

*[Hexoatl is specifically mentioned as being one of the "dozens of sites all around Lustria" whose city ships are activated to evacuate the slann. There is also "the Obelix of the Silver Stars in Itza" and "the lonely jungle outposts of Chicxulubta" - wherever they are. (Thanquol, p170)]
**[Tlaxtlan was destroyed along with the invading Skaven by Tetto'eko's comet after he had evacuated most of the slann (Thanquol p23) and Chaqua and Quetza had long been unlivable and would have been destroyed along with the rest of Lustria and hence their glyphs are inactive.
***[I'm theorising that each of these cities also contained evacuation ships that were activated by the slann, being among the "dozens of sites..." mentioned above, as they correspond to the cities that may be in ruins but whose ships were still intact and were (relatively) safe to enter/teleport into and activated; the rift in Xahutec is now quiet so the city could be entered etc. This would explain why each of their glyphs had returned to their default state - neither destroyed nor integrated into a temple city.
****[As his final act, Lord Kroak creates "several protective force domes" around upspecified areas and sends them and the "chunks of earth and jungle" under them unharmed "up and beyond the horizon of the world" ( Thanquol, p170).]
The three cities with raised glyphs are what Lord Kroak saved; I'm guessing that he saved Xlanhuapec, Huatl, and Oyxl because they were the only cities remaining that were still standing, populated, and free of enemies (Itza was overrun with Skaven and infected by plague, Hexoatl had been emptied and its remaining slann evacuated, and Tlaxtlan was now a crater). These cities are still fully active so hence their glyphs are raised.
*****[Each of the three possible options could have (or were in Itza's case) been evacuated as described above so it doesn't really narrow anything down.

Furthermore, in the 8th ed. armybook's description of Oyxl - it mentioned that "the Skinks of that city have almost mastered the carnivorous, flightless birds that roam the surrounding plains" (emphasis mine) - if I'm right, this seems to describe the upcoming skink riders as they've had plenty of time to master them!

 

[Imrahil]

On closer inspection, it appears that each of the glyphs on the new Lord Kroak aren't all level with each other (see photo); there are three that are raised higher than the others (marked with a '+' below) and three that are lower (marked '-').
Below, in brackets, are the status of each city as per the last 8th edition (8e) Lizardmen Armybook, mainly from the descriptions on p24 and the map on p25).
Note that the book also states that sometimes individual slann will temporarily settle in the ruined cities for optimum meditation (8e p22) so it is possible that slann may have been present in those cities.
I will discuss what happens to each of the temple cities in the End Times under *spoilers* in a following post along with my theory of what the state of each of the glyphs mean.
View attachment 129537
#1: Hexoatl, city of the Sun [Living city, home to Mazdamundi (8e p53)]
#2: Tlaxtlan, city of the Moon [Living city, home to Tetto'eko (8e p57)](-)
#3: Xahutec, city of Echoes [Abandoned due to chaos but has a permanent "strong guard around its perimeter" (8e, p24)
#4: Huatl, the Awakening (+) [Was in the process of being refounded (Ibid)]
#5: Tlax, city of Ghosts [Ruined, Haunted - unclear if there were still lizardmen present (Ibid)]
#6: Pahaux, city of Ash [Repeatedly refounded then abandoned - six times(Ibid), spawns chameleon skinks upon Oxyotl's return (8e p27)]
#7: Zlatlan [Uncontactable - status unknown]/Tlanxla [Ruined during Great Catastrophe(8e p9)otherwise unmentioned]/ Itza [Living city]?
#8: Chaqua, city of Gold (-) [Abandoned, plague still too potent to return]
#9: Quetza, the Defiled (-) [Abandoned, crushed by Tettoéko's comet (8e p27); unfit to be refounded but snakes beneath keep skaven in check]
#10: Axlotl, the Star city [Partially reconsecrated, guarded by chameleon skinks]
#11: Oyxl. the Eternal city [Great Temple still attended by Skink Priests] (+)
#12: Xhotl, city of Destiny [Ruined during Great Catastrophe; Kroq-Gar and his mount Grymloq are the only survivors (8e p51); no mention of its current status]
#13: Chupayotl, the Sunken city [Slipped into the sea and its slann were slain (8e p226)]

My theory is that the state of each of the glyphs represents the current state of each temple city: the lowest represent the cities that were lost, the middle represent the city ships that were evacuated, and the raised represent those cities that were saved entirely during the events of the End Times.

Spoiler: Spoilers from the [I]End Times: Thanquol[/I] here

#1: Hexoatl, city of the Sun* [slann and skink attendants evacuated]
#2: Tlaxtlan, city of the Moon (-)** [destroyed]
#3: Xahutec, city of Echoes*** [The beginning off Thanquol describes a constant tide of daemons pouring through the rift, contained only by Kroq-Gar and endless reinforcements (p14) but later the mind-walking slann find it "strangely becalmed" (Thanquol, p51)
#4: Huatl, the Awakening (+)**** [Was in the process of being refounded]
#5: Tlax, city of Ghosts*** [Ruined, Haunted - unclear if there were still lizardmen present]
#6: Pahaux, city of Ash*** [Setting for Tehenhauin's failed stand against the skaven but the rats had then moved to Itza (Thanquol p156-57]
#7: Zlatlan [Unknown]***/Tlanxla***/ Itza* [slann and skink attendants evacuated]*****
#8: Chaqua, city of Gold (-)** [Abandoned, plague still too potent]
#9: Quetza, the Defiled (-)** [Abandoned, unfit to be refounded but snakes beneath]
#10: Axlotl, the Star city*** [Partially reconsecrated, guarded by chameleon skinks; home to the slann known as the "Hermit Lords of Axlotl, according to the 7th ed armybook (p30)
#11: Oyxl. the Eternal city (+)**** [Great Temple still attended by Skink Priests]
#12: Xhotl, city of Destiny*** [Ruined]
#13: Chupayotl, the Sunken city*** [Submerged]
#14: Xlanhuapec, city of Mists (+)**** [Living city] [damaged and spawning pools irreversibly contaminated by Skaven; some ancient wonders destroyed, but the pyramid-temples and the slann with them survive (apart from Lord Hua-Hua)] and the city is cleansed of enemies by Kroq-Gar and his armies (Thanquol, p40-45).

*[Hexoatl is specifically mentioned as being one of the "dozens of sites all around Lustria" whose city ships are activated to evacuate the slann. There is also "the Obelix of the Silver Stars in Itza" and "the lonely jungle outposts of Chicxulubta" - wherever they are. (Thanquol, p170)]
**[Tlaxtlan was destroyed along with the invading Skaven by Tetto'eko's comet after he had evacuated most of the slann (Thanquol p23) and Chaqua and Quetza had long been unlivable and would have been destroyed along with the rest of Lustria and hence their glyphs are inactive.
***[I'm theorising that each of these cities also contained evacuation ships that were activated by the slann, being among the "dozens of sites..." mentioned above, as they correspond to the cities that may be in ruins but whose ships were still intact and were (relatively) safe to enter/teleport into and activated; the rift in Xahutec is now quiet so the city could be entered etc. This would explain why each of their glyphs had returned to their default state - neither destroyed nor integrated into a temple city.
****[As his final act, Lord Kroak creates "several protective force domes" around upspecified areas and sends them and the "chunks of earth and jungle" under them unharmed "up and beyond the horizon of the world" ( Thanquol, p170).]
The three cities with raised glyphs are what Lord Kroak saved; I'm guessing that he saved Xlanhuapec, Huatl, and Oyxl because they were the only cities remaining that were still standing, populated, and free of enemies (Itza was overrun with Skaven and infected by plague, Hexoatl had been emptied and its remaining slann evacuated, and Tlaxtlan was now a crater). These cities are still fully active so hence their glyphs are raised.
*****[Each of the three possible options could have (or were in Itza's case) been evacuated as described above so it doesn't really narrow anything down.

Furthermore, in the 8th ed. armybook's description of Oyxl - it mentioned that "the Skinks of that city have almost mastered the carnivorous, flightless birds that roam the surrounding plains" (emphasis mine) - if I'm right, this seems to describe the upcoming skink riders as they've had plenty of time to master them!

That is very interesting and quite a solid argumentation behind it. Hadn't noticed the difference in height from previous pictures.
Thanks for your clarifications

Grrr, !mrahil