AoS Share your future Seraphon Starhost (batallion) ideas!

This is a improved repost from a few days ago. Because I had made so many changes I felt that it would be better to just start over again and post my idea. And also to ask you guys what you would love to see in future Seraphon Starhosts.

A few days ago I fought against a Sylvaneth army, and really noticed the strength he had due to his starhost, which consisted out of his entire army. Meaning he could start and have the advantage against my Slann who had to first use his command to reroll saves against ranged attacks..
However, I heard someone mention that Seraphon might get their own items, buffs, and batallions in the future together with the other already existing races.
So I was thinking, would they possibly also make such a single batallion for Seraphon? In which case, what would it look like?

Before I go into it though, what do you guys think are the possiblities for a mixed army buff? As in, if Seraphon has non-Seraphon units, could all buffs affection Seraphon or the faction of the added non-seraphon unit also affect all "Order units" as well? Thus allowing buffs and effects to overlap? If not, then I'd love it if one of the batallions could allow that and include Seraphon.

Also seeing as we have both Skink and Saurus batallions, perhaps it might be fun to include both Saurus and Skink units in this single batallion? As such I've combined several in this starhost, and make it sort of a combination of features from other starhosts.

Might of Kuzko Starhost (140 points)

This starhost gives the following buffs to the units within this army:

Kuzko: The idea is that you use a Slann Starmaster model, and proclaim him to be Kuzco. This means that he can't carry any items, but in return he has several upgrades compared to the regular Slann.

For starters, Kuzko gains access to the Celestial Deliverance, and Comet's call spells, due to his apprenticeship with Lord Kroak.

Also, instead of the old Slann command, it now becomes an aura: All units within 18 inch gain rerolls on saves against ranged attacks, and gain fly.
As a new command ability, in the hero phase Kuzko can roll a D6. If the roll is 4 or higher, this reroll bonus also counts during all phases (so also against melee), and in addition all non-monster/behemoth units within range gain +3 movement.

Kuzko can also choose two constellations instead of one. If you roll one you already have, keep rolling until you get one of the other two.

In addition, Kuzko his Azure lightning attack deals D3 damage, and gains -2 rend instead of -1.

Wizards: Order Wizards (including Kuzko) have access to the following spell:
Memories of the stars: On a result of 5 or more (including bonusses) the target unit is healed for D3 wounds. In addition, if the result is 8 or more, D3 models are resurrected as well (But only 1 model for units with a minimum amount of models of less than 5).

Engine of the gods: The engine is a big part of this starhost, as it also receives a few buffs:

On a 3-5 roll the range of the heal is increased by 5 inch.
On a 6-9 roll the range of the bolt is increased by 5 inch.
On a roll of 10-13 the range of the range of the whirlpool is increased by 5 inch.
On a 14-17 roll, an engine of the gods also summons a low tier unit (lowest unit size) in additional to summoning a Seraphon unit. When playing with points, this means that on a roll of 14-17 it can summon this unit for free. In addition to any further summoning through reserve points. Roll a dice:
1-2: The EOTG summons a Skinks unit
3-4: The EOTG summons a Saurus warriors unit
5-6: The EOTG summons a Saurus guards unit
These units benefit from all the bonusses of the Starhost. However, once you lose an amount of units equal to the number of units you deployed, you will lose the game.
This effect only works if Kuzko is within 8 inch of the Engine of the gods.

All friendly hero, Kroxigor and monster/behemoth units within 8 inch of the Engine of the gods heal for 1 wound each turn.

The engine of the gods does not count towards the maximum hero count.

Non-hero Saurus units: When charging, whenever the wound roll on non-hero Saurus units their main weapon (so not their jaws) is 6 or higher it generates an additional mortal wound. This stacks with the mortal wound granted by the Saurus knight's blazing lances ability.

While within 8 inch of a Saurus hero, non-hero Saurus units can gain one of the following two stances:
Fury: Non-hero Saurus units gain -1 rend on their main weapon (stacking with already existing rend), and their Stardrake shields grant immunity to -2 rend and lower.
Deviant: Non-hero Saurus units gain +1 on save rolls, and an additional attack with their "Fearsome jaws and Stardrake shield".
In your hero phase you can choose which stance all non-hero Saurus units receive until you choose to change it in a future hero phase.

Saurus heroes: Saurus heroes can use their command ability in addition to Lord Kuzko. As long as they are within 20 inch of him.

Skink units: All Skink heroes and Skinks (the basic troops, not all those with the Skink type) gain +1 on save rolls.
In addition, whenever they roll a natural 6 on a hit, do not roll for wound. Instead the target unit suffers a mortal wound due to Sotek's venomous blessing.
This stacks with effects that already create similar effects (like Tehenhauin his passive ability).
And meteoric javelins thrown from the back of Stegadon, Bastiladon, and the engine of the gods also gain the mortal wound on a natural 6 hit effect.

Chameleon Skinks will deal 2 (3 if the target is a chaos demon) mortal wounds on a hit roll of 6 or higher, replacing the effect of star venom.

Skink Chiefs and Tehenhauin can also use their command ability in addition to Kuzko, as long as they are within 20 inch of him.

While within 8 inch of the Engine of the gods, or within 8 inch of a Skink hero (as long as the Engine of the gods is still in play) Skink units (All units with the Skink type) can reroll wound rolls.

Kroxigor: Kroxigor models gain 1 additional wound. And in addition all their attacks gain -1 rend (which stacks with already existing rend).

Terradon/Ripperdactyl riders: During the hero phase you can choose to let these units “dive down” and appear anywhere on the map. This effect is similar to that of the shadowstrike starhost, and in the movement phase it can move around the battle field. When setting up your units before the battle, you can choose to put these units aside, stating they are “in the clouds”, so you can let them “dive down” in future turns. You can choose to do the same when they are summoned or summoned back through the Engine of the god’s summoning effect. Subsequently, you can choose to let the units “Rise up” to put them out of play and “in the clouds” again in your hero phase.

Requirements:

-Slann Starmage (Kuzko)
-Engine of the gods (does not count towards maximum number of heroes)
-Eternity Warden
-A combination of 1 to 6 heroes from the following list:
Saurus oldblood on Carnosaur, Saurus scar veteran on Cold one, Saurus scar veteran on Carnosaur, Sunblood, Oldblood, Astrolith bearer, Skink priest, Skink starpriest, Skink Starseer.
As well as the following Lizardmen heroes: Skink Chief, Tehenhauin, Oxyotl. (And Tiqtak'to if he comes out again).
-3 to 12 units of Saurus warriors, Saurus guards, Skinks, Kroxigor, Terradon riders, Ripperdactyl riders, Chameleon Skinks,
-1 to 5 monsters/behemoths. These can be any Seraphon unit (as well as the Dread Saurian? We can hope can't we?), or a Celestial Hurricanum, or a Luminark of Hysh. This due to the celestial affinity of these two charriots. When chosen, any effects that target Seraphon units also target "order" units. And likewise the charriot's abilities that target "collegiate arcane wizards" also target "order" units. However, if you choose to take one of these two Charriots, you will not be able to use guards and knights as battleline units. And you might miss out on the "Seraphon only" buffs that could appear in the future.

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That's pretty much my idea for a huge starhost. It is basically a combination of several starhosts. Though with lots of focus on that you need at least the Slann and the Engine of the gods alive to gain the buffs, and that you need to try and keep your core units alive and happy or else it falls apart. Plus they need to be close in formation to make the buffs work.
Also it will give buffs to all the 4 types of units (Slann, Saurus, Skink, Kroxigor) and give them that own unique feel and strength.

Any thoughts on my Starhost idea? And perhaps you have some Starhost Ideas yourself? Let us know in the comments below

EDIT: I removed the extra bite attack that non-hero Saurus units gain. Seeing as this Starhost is a combination of weaker versions of the other Starhosts. To create a strong unified and mixed Seraphon army.
EDIT: EDIT: After a very good suggestion from ASSASSIN_NR_1 I decided to change the Engine of the god's it's summoning on 14-17: Instead of summoning back killed units, with a 50% miss chance, the engine can now summon low tier units (lowest unit number) in addition to summoning a different unit. This means that in points play it can summon free units, and in casual with summoning it can now summon an additional weak tier unit as well.
EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: Instead of the -1 rend, I thought it might be more balanced to give all non-hero Saurus an extra attack with their "bite and stardrake shield".
EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: On more advice from ASSASSIN_NR_1 I decided to change the Non-hero Saurus their passive buffs into stances instead. So it will be much like the Thunderquake starhost, where you choose one of 2 stances, and received 2 buffs with each stance.
EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: I've changed the passive of Sotek's venomous blessing. Instead of gaining a mortal wound on a roll of 6 or more, it now creates a mortal wound on a natural roll of 6.

 

Now I don't know what buffs the Sylvaneth have, and I have barely played AOS, but that seems really powerful, considering all the buffs. So I guess the starhost would be rather expensive

 

True, this is just a brainstorm idea. I'm thinking about not giving the Saurus warriors their extra bite attack. But for the rest the idea is to give a broad amount of buffs, but make them less powerfull versions of the other starhosts their buffs. And in such a way that whenever you pick one of the four races in this batallion (Saurus, Skink, Kroxigor, Slann) you feel that they are powerfull in their own right, and contribute in their own way. Also 140 points does seem like a good amount.

 

Perhaps I should also remove the 14-17 effect from the Engine of the gods? I did feel that there was a significant miss chance since you had to roll 14-17 with 3-4 dice, and then also had to roll a 4 or higher with a dice.

The reason for this additionalo buff is because whenever I roll really well with the rolls for the engine of the gods, I'm not rewarded with it in point play. Sure, I could put points aside. But summoning for Seraphon right now is pretty weak.

Perhaps there is another way to make summoning less useless? (Like you have to put points aside for this starhost, and when summoning you can summon more with less points or something?). Which I could use instead of that effect? Otherwise I could just say that additionally he summons 2 Jungle swarms or something? So that there is still a use for that unit, even if it's a lizardmen unit And you also summon those Jungle Swarms additionally to your normal summoning (or just summon those when you don't have a engine of the gods), and you summon them for free?

 

Maybe you could summon a unit for free, but only something like saurus warriors or skinks, and then their lowest units size.

 

I like that idea! Hmm, well how about a Jungle swarm unit? It consists out of 2 jungle swards with each 5 wounds. However, they are swarms, so they have no saves.

However, if they are still too strong (the reason I thought about a jungle swarm unit is because that is the only unit that doesn't benefit from the bonusses of this Starhost), then a skink or saurus warriors unit sounds great as well. Which of the two do you think sounds the most balanced? The idea is that in addition to summoning a unit (if at all), the engine will also summon a Jungle Swarm unit, or a Saurus warriors unit, or a Skink unit.

Perhaps there is no miss chance with the engine, but instead you roll a dice:
1-2: Skinks
3-4: Saurus warriors
5-6: Jungle Swarms

However, instead of Jungle Swarms (because I believe they aren't made anymore?) we could have Saurus Guards on a roll of 5-6 instead? How does that sound?

 

I just edited my post, I really love the idea of the EOTG summoning those low tier units, so I changed the effect to that instead.

 

Also, I was thinking, perhaps I could change the buff for the guards? I took the +1 defense of the Eternal starhost and gave it to all non-hero Saurus units, since Saurus warriors and Saurus knights could use a little more tankyness. And then I gave the -1 rend to all since both Saurus warriors and even knights lack that.

Also, giving guards -2 rend means they will give Seraphon the higher rend they often lack. And the +1 bonus on saves means that guards will be able to better deal with -2 and higher rend enemy units.

This way the starhost combines some of the features of the firelance, sunclaw, and eternal starhosts. So none of the units will feel left out if you combine them together. And if you field smaller armies it still makes sense to pick one of those starhosts and gain the additional benefits.

Or should I give those bonusses to Saurus warriors and knights, and give guards a different bonus? Or instead of the -1 bonus rend give all non-hero Saurus units an extra attack with their "bite and stardrake shield"? And just take a different part of the Sunclaw Starhost?

 

Requirements:
1 Troglodon
1-3 units of Kroxigor
3+ units of Skinks

Bonuses:
Kroxigor ability Energy Transference now allows you to reroll all wound rolls when a Skink unit is nearby.
Skink units in this battalion that are near the Kroxigors or Troglodon from this battalion count as being in Cover.
The Troglodon in this army is a Wizard that knows the Mystic Shield and Arcane Bolt spells.

Cost: 100 points?

 

For balance purposes, I would give saurus the extra bite attack, but I do like the extra -1 rend. All in all it still comes down to what the starhost will cost.
The extra -1 rend and +1 to saves, is a little much though. Maybe instead it could be like the thunderquake starhost, where you choose an attribute for the army each turn. So one is defense another offense. Then offense could be -1 rend and an extra attack with "bite and stardrake shield", and defense could be +1 to saves and maybe also some other bonus like if they stand still, they can better use their shields, so they ignore rend up to -2.

 

Those actually sound like great ideas. I liked that feature about the Thunderquake starhost as well, and that would be a nice balancing tool.

However, I'd still love for Warriors and knights to have the +1 defense, even if the +1 defense for guards is a little over the top (they already have 3+ defense when near a Seraphon hero). Or do you think that even with 5+ defense Saurus warriors and knights will still be able to take enough of a punch if you decide to go offensive? Though then again if you move in with defensive mode, and we go with the +1 save and immunity against -2 rend, then that would make up for it, as you can then decide to take the risk of less defense to gain -2 (stacking) rend and the extra attack with "fearsome jaws and stardrake shield". Perhaps this effect could be changed at the start of your hero phase for all Saurus non-hero units, as long as they are within 8inch of a Saurus hero? This means that if there are no Saurus heros, then they only get the extra mortal wound on a wound roll of 6 or higher (lets keep that in it as well), so you have more of a achilles heel.

Or perhaps each of the two stances could have a offensive and defensive feature?

For instance, one stance could give you a -1 rend (stacking) on all Saurus units, and a immunity to -2 rend. But the other stance gives you +1 save, and a extra attack with "fearsome jaws and stardrake shield"?

 

First thoughts would be that the starhost in your initial post is waaaay too bloated- battalions work best when there is efficiency in their design. Fundamentally changing a bunch of units' rules in pretty in-depth ways tends to make the battalion too complex.

It also seems waaay undercosted. Compare this to Clan Skryre which is around 200points if I recall- you get a ton of bonuses here (with very few army building restrictions!) for a mere 140 extra points, absolute insanity.

It is also far too multifaceted, it just does everything you could ever need. Battalions work best when they accentuate a particular playstyle or tactic, and provide the player with serious choices when it comes to army building. With this...why would you ever not take it?

@PJetski 's idea however (with the Krox, Trog and Skinks) is great. That is exactly what battalions should be- it incentivises using sub-par models, it gives significant but balanced benefits, and is nice and fluffy due to the close relationship between krox and skinks. It is compact with room for expansion, and can be "splashed in" to an army comp rather nicely without over committing or denying other strategies. Now I'm just disappointed it doesn't actually exist because I would be all over this!

 

Alright thanks! I didn't have much to compare it to. What would you think would be a proper point cost?

And my idea was to make it a sort of combined starhost. I liked the idea of starhosts and how they compliment a certain playstyle and tactic. But I also wanted a starhost with A) one you could put down in one go, and B) one where you could field all 4 types of units (Slann, Saurus, Skinks, Kroxigor) and with each of them feeling unique in their own way. Hence why I was thinking of a Starhost which could buff all those units.

However, I love to brainstorming ideas, so perhaps you have an idea on how I could balance this?

And I agree, PJetski his idea is really nice! I love the idea of those bigger units giving cover. And I like the idea of how the Skinks give a bigger bonus to the Kroxigor as well.
What I miss about the current skinks though is that unless you have big groups of them, they are having a hard time hitting something. With this starhost, how does the idea of allowing them a bonus on a hit of 6 as well? Perhaps something like Tehenhauin and Jungle Swarms, and use the Mortal wound on a hit of 6 idea here as well?

Or perhaps we could give them something like the Skink handlers have? That on a hit roll of 6 or more the skinks don't have to roll for wound, but automatically will cause 1 damage (for which the opponent can stilll roll, so it's like a weaker version of my previous idea).

Also, What do you think about giving the Troglodon the possibility to be a general? And give him a command as long as he is part of that starhost? We are kinda lacking in Skink heroes with a command ability.

 

Figured it would be better to reply here

Like Infamous Beany said, I love your idea here! It looks pretty good by the looks of it Plus it's a reason to use both Kroxigor as well as Troglodon.

However, Skinks still have a pretty high wound roll they need to pass. So what do you think about giving all skinks (you mean skinks as in the unit right? Not the type) the Skink handler's passive as well? But now on the skinks their weapons?
"Aim for their Eyes: If you roll a hit roll of 6 or more for a Goad-spear, that attack has struck the target in the eyes and wounds automatically – there is no need to make a wound roll for that attack."
It's not a mortal wound, but you still get rewarded for rolling well with the Skinks their hits.

And I love the idea of making the Troglodon a Wizard. Perhaps we could make him a full fledged hero (he isn't a hero right now) if he's part of this starhost? Complete with command? So that in 1000 point matches you can pick him as your general. And perhaps along with those spells he can use an unique spell of his own?
And maybe make the requirement 2+ units of Skinks? Since at 1000 points you just need a minimum of 2 battleline units.

Also, even with those additional features, I would make the cost 80 points, since an Eternal starhost gets the +1 defense, and D3 damage on 16 attacks per 5 guards.

 

Pjetski, sorry if it sounds like I'm high jacking your idea, but I really loved the basis of it, and I'd love it if I could expand on it a bit. The idea is to give it a few more features, and make it a Starhost where the Troglodon becomes a hero in it's own right. Also gave him a spell based on the Lifesurge battlemage. And a command that is based on Tehenhauin his command. And seeing as this hero is 200 points as opposed to Tehenhauin's 80 points I gave it a stronger command. Here goes:

Starvenom Starhost (100 points)

Requirements:
1 Troglodon
1-3 units of Kroxigor
2+ units of Skinks

Bonuses:
-Advanced Transfer: Kroxigor ability Energy Transference now allows you to reroll all wound rolls when a Skink unit is nearby.
-Get behind the big guys: Skinks units in this battalion that are near the Kroxigors or Troglodon from this battalion count as being in Cover.
-Aim for their Eyes: If you roll a hit roll of 6 or more for a unit of skinks with any attack, that attack has struck the target in the eyes and wounds automatically. There is no need to make a wound roll for that attack.
-Chieftain's might: The Troglodon in this army becomes a hero unit, and is now called "Skink Chieftain on Troglodon". This unit is a Wizard that knows the Mystic Shield and Arcane Bolt spells, as well as the "Sotek's healing touch" spell. He also gains access to the "Vigilant Chieftain" command trait.

Sotek's Healing touch: The Skink Chieftain on Troglodon infuses his allies with the Serpent god Sotek's more benevolent side. Sotek's healing touch has a casting value of 5. If successfully cast, pick a unit within 18 inch. One model of that unit is healed for D3 wounds. However, when cast upon a "Skinks" unit, that unit instead resurrects D3 models. On a casting value of 10 or more the effect is doubled.
Vigilant Chieftain: The Skink Chieftain on Troglodon gains access to the "Vigilant Chieftain" command. All friendly Order units within 18 inch of this unit can reroll hit rolls of 1, and can re-roll failed save rolls in the shooting phase. the Skink Chieftain on Troglodon does not have to activate this command, as it is always active as long as he is the general. And in the first round, if an enemy player starts first, all friendly Skink type and Kroxigor type units within 18 inch count as being in cover.

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How does this sound? This way we have a Skink Hero with his own command trait, based on that of Tehenhauin and the Slann Starmaster. The idea is that he works well against alpha strike units, especially since against enemy alpha strike armies the skink heroes always go down first (Their poor low wound stats....). So as long as you have this starhost, with the Skink Chieftain on Troglodon as your general, you will be able to field a Skink army without having to worry about half your Skink heroes being destroyed in the first round against Sylvaneth and the like.

And now we have an excuse to field Skinks in the frontline, and even with two weapons instead of always the starbuckler. Allowing for more viable options when fielding them. Thanks to the Sotek's Healing touch spell, and the "Aim for their Eyes" trait for the Skinks units.

Thoughts?

 

I think it's trying to do a little bit too much, keep it simple!

 

Well how about just make the Troglodon a Wizard? With him being a tier 1 Wizard with the basic spells? And make the Starhost's point cost 80 points?

Starvenom Starhost (80 points)

Requirements:
1 Troglodon
1-3 units of Kroxigor
2+ units of Skinks

Bonuses:
-Advanced Transfer: The Kroxigor ability Energy Transference now allows you to reroll all wound rolls when a Skink unit is nearby.
-Get behind the big guys: Skinks units in this battalion that are near the Kroxigors or Troglodon from this battalion count as being in Cover.
-Aim for their Eyes: If you roll a hit roll of 6 or more for a unit of skinks with an attack, that attack has struck the target in the eyes and wounds automatically. There is no need to make a wound roll for that attack.
-Skink Acolyte: The Troglodon in this army is a wizard that knows the Mystic shield and Arcane bolt spells.

 

So I had a little free time today, and since I enjoyed brainstorming about the ideas so much I thought I'd come up with a Constellation as well. This will be a smaller Constellation, and only includes the Starvenom Starhost I posted above. The idea is that for a total cost of 180 points you'd have a Constellation with a capable Troglodon hero, and Skinks units which can take the heat of battle. As well as Skink heroes who don't instantly get picked off in the shooting phase:

Celestial Chieftain Constellation (100 points)

Requirements:
Starvenom Starhost
1-3 Skink Priests or Skink Starpriests
2 Stegadon and/or Bastilladon in any combination

Bonuses:
-Monster units from this Starhost within 8 inch of the Troglodon can reroll wound rolls.
-Monster and Kroxigor models heal 1 wound each round.
-Skinks units can resurrect 1 model each round.
-Skink Priests and Starpriests benefit from "Get behind the big guys". And their spells and abilities can affect all friendly Order units as well.
-The Troglodon in this army becomes a hero unit. He knows the "Sotek's undying Faith" spell in addition to his other spells. He also gains access to the "Vigilant Chieftain" command trait.

Sotek's undying Faith: The Troglodon hero infuses his allies with the Serpent god Sotek's more benevolent side. Sotek's undying Faith has a casting value of 5. If successfully cast, pick a unit within 18 inch. One model of that unit is healed for D3 wounds. However, when cast upon a "Skinks" unit, that unit instead resurrects D3 models. On a casting value of 10 or more the effect is doubled.
Vigilant Chieftain: The Troglodon hero gains access to the "Vigilant Chieftain" command. All friendly Order units within 18 inch of this unit can reroll hit rolls of 1, and can re-roll failed save rolls in the shooting phase. the Skink Chieftain on Troglodon does not have to activate this command, as it is always active as long as he is the general. Additionally in the first round, if an enemy player starts first, all friendly Order units within 18 inch count as being in cover.

 

I think I would keep it simple and cheap. The Tzeench changehost is only 60 points and a copy of that would work well.

1 slann mage priest
8 more units with Keyword seraphon. Cannot also have keyword slann.

In each hero phase you may choose two units and they swap places.

Simple but effective

 

I actually like that idea, it should work well against Sylvaneth! However, whenever I try to put down Skink heroes, Sylvaneth just destroys them all in the first round, where they can always play first. Hence my idea for this Constillation (which is a bit more expensive) which gives more protection to your low wound Skink heroes, and also allows your Skinks to be more effective in battle. Both offensively and defensively.

Your idea would work well when you place tanky units in front, and then you can swap them for more offensive units