8th Ed. Should i submit my will to the old ones? (convince me)

[Sunchax]

Hello Lustria!

Long time since i was active in warhammer, but i had a big lizardmen army and a wood elves army that is gone now. (Also some 40 k army's)

Now my friend wants me to start building a army once again, he have just ordered a dark elves army on e-bay and in the meantime i guess i should rally up an army of my own, this is where you guys come in.

Wood elves where kinda hard to play, at least to win with. And i need a army that is good enough to stick it to those pesky dark elves, is lizardmen the way to go? They are by far the coolest of the races (fluff and looks), but cool is not good enough this time around. It would be nice to be able to play tournaments, but the ability to defeat a DE army is a strict criterium.

I am aware that fantasy are more balanced then 40k, but as i understand there is a degree of difference playing chaos and wood elves for example. (in the ability to kick ass.) So how does the army of the old once hold up to this challenge nowadays? with new codex and all? Should i submit my will to the old ones or maybe chose a different path?

The more explanatory the answer is, the better. =)

Thanks.

 

[Scalenex]

The hard part about answering your question is that the Dark Elves are getting a new Codex, so few people will have read much less played the new Dark Elves.

Assuming Dark Elves don't change much in their fundamentals. Dark Elves throw lots of dice on lots of attacks that are fairly accurate but not very hard hitting. Lizardmen don't score as many hits but more of their hits count so our basic troops are about even.

Neither Lizardmen nor Dark Elves seem to have had an unfair advantage over the other under the old books. Since the Slann lost their most broken combos, it's a reasonable guess that Dark Elves will lose their two broken items. Undercosted Hydras and the Chuck Norris combo.

Most of the armies are pretty balanced. I think you should concentrate more on your preferred style of play than the competitiveness of an army.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Lizards are a great choice against dark elves.
Dark elves are gaining Always Strike First, which gives them re-rolls to hit against everything lizard.
Well, from the lizards stand point; nothing has changed.
Dark Elves were striking first before, and re-rolling to hit from hate. So all the crying that we are about to hear, really amounts to nothing new.

What is new, is that dark elves are becoming slightly more elite, and more expensive. That means, more points per model, and less of them on the table. They are going to die just as fast as they were before, but you won't have to kill as many.
It looks like the new spells are better; but the boosts to the magic phase are worse (+1 power die is gone, the super dagger only works on a 4+, and the spell that makes power dice also can wound the caster).

So, yes, lizardmen are a very good choice against dark elves.


-Matt

 

[spawning of Bob]

Its interesting that the last 3 or 4 supplicants to ask this question of the Old Ones have actually been more concerned about the quality of fluff being a deciding factor.

You, Sunchax, are more interested in the competitiveness of the mighty forces of Lustria.

There is a third consideration: Sunchax is a very lizard-y sounding name. It would be a shame to waste it.

 

[Sunchax]

Thank for your answers!


I feel pretty much convinced that lizards is the way to go now. I ask since it after all is a big investment and been a while since i played. (the rules keep changing) Since you are such good old sports i am going to fire another round of questions.

What aspects do i need to think about when i go to the store and buy a elves-smashing army?
How do i counter 2 hydras for example? And assassins and so on? I heard that their hero's is quite good as well.
I guess i will need superior magic, big dinosaurs, infantry and shooting lizards like salamanders.

I am glad to hear that basic infantry is on equal footing, it would be sad if weak elves had the upper-hand on mighty Saurons. Is spears still the way to go?


@bob, well, i already know that the fluff is superior, basically grew up painting and reading about mainly lizardmen

(Fluff), i do not get it why lizards are so slow tho fluff-wise, have they never seen an aligator or a snake? Those have lightning reflexes and are generally fast). An alligator can outrun most things. =P

 

[RipperDerek]

As far as hand weapons vs. spears goes, which is better is situational. Spears are better against enemies with low toughness / armor.

For example, if your Saurus block is 5x5, spears will give you an extra 5 attacks. That will do 5*(3/6)*(4/6)*(5/6) = 1.4 wounds against T3 5+. In order for hand weapons to be better, the opposing block needs to be doing 8.3 wounds or more each combat, which isn't likely.

But against T4 2+, those 5 attacks only get you 5*(3/6)*(3/6)*(2/6) = .42 wounds. Now the opposing block only needs to average 2.5 wounds against you, which is much more likely. In this case, you probably want the hand weapons.

So generally speaking, you'll want to take spears against squishy things you can put the hurt on, and take hand weapons against tougher things you have difficulty wounding.

 

[Scalenex]

What aspects do i need to think about when i go to the store and buy a elves-smashing army?
How do i counter 2 hydras for example? And assassins and so on? I heard that their hero's is quite good as well.
I guess i will need, superior magic, big dinosaurs, infantry and shooting lizards like salamanders.

I mostly played High Elves not Dark Elves but I have some thoughts.

To counter two Hydras I would recommend first giving a block of Temple Guard the Banner of Eternal Flame (it’s cheap and useful for building assaults as well). Second to counter hydras I would suggest taking the Lore of Fire or High Magic (and swapping spells out for Lore of Fire spells and/or the Lore of Light signature spell). In a smaller points game where affording a Slann is dicey (and the Dark Elves will have to take a mere one Hydra), I’d recommend taking lots of Skink skirmishers and some Terradons with fireleeches. Attack with the Fireleeches first to negate the Regeneration, then unload on them with poisoned shooting. Not the greatest hydra killer combo in the world but the best we got at low points. In any points sized game, Bastiladons can fry Hydras with their bound spell MOST of the time (the spell kind of sucks if you roll a 1 or 2 but that’s life).

My favorite thing to do when fighting elite armies is to take an Oldblood with the Fencer’s Blades and Glittering Scales magic items. That makes him hard to hit even for Elf lords and the Oldblood’s natural strength is enough to wound the elves. If you can’t squeeze in an Oldblood without sacrificing a Slann, take a Scar Veteran and give him the Armor of Destiny.

You’ll probably want to field three good sized blocks of Saurus and/or Temple Guard per game or two VERY big blocks of Saurus or Temple Guard. You’ll want a few Skirmishers and/or Chameleon Skinks (I like to make my blowpipe Skinks Chameleon Skinks with appropriate paint jobs to save money). You’ll want a Salamander or two. You’ll probably want a Bastiladon or two and maybe a Stegadon or two. A few Skink Priests would not be amiss. Cold One Riders are not a bad idea but they have to compete with your dinosaurs for points so it’s a matter of personal preference.

If elves are your focus I’d probably recommend against the Troglodons, Kroxigor, and Skink Cohorts. I’m on the fence about Razordons, Swarms, and Carnosaurs. They can do great things against Dark Elves but mostly against specific Dark Elf units as opposed to the whole army. Terradons and Ripperdactlyls can do nice things against Elves but they are somewhat vulnerable to shooting so it depends how much of a gambler you are.

I am glad to hear that basic infantry is on equal footing, it would be sad if weak elves had the upper-hand on mighty Saurons. Is spears still the way to go?

Hand Weapons and Spears are about equal on the whole. I’ve been using them about 50/50 in the new book and I haven’t come up with a clear winner yet (the winner seems to be whichever one has character support or a weaker opponent).

These Things Make Spears Better
-Likely lots of buff spells on the Sauri (or hexes on their enemies)
-Has lots of extra ranks
-A likelihood of being charged

These Things Make Hand Weapons Better
-Likely few buff spells on the Sauri (or hexes on their enemies)
-Has fewer ranks
-A likelihood of being the charger

 

[A Steaming Kroak]

The new army book for Dark Elves is coming out soon and rumoured to be changing the Regeneration on the Hydra into a rule similar to that of the Slann's discipline transcendent healing. If this is the case, then you will not need any of the recommended flaming attacks against the Hydra because they will not help you wound it. I would consider waiting until the Dark Elf book comes out before committing to a list so that you can see exactly what you will be up against.

 

[Sunchax]

Thanks for all the great responses! I guess i will wait until the codex comes until i make my list, i also found Scalenex tactics list now that i looked around more. Maybe it will get some Dark Elves tactics by that time *hint hint*

What should i do in respond to cauldron of blood and bolt throwers? chameleon skinks?

I guess i will take spears for them elves to die on, thanks!