8th Ed. Skink chief on Stegadon (different question).

[Ratlizardelfguy]

I'm going to be playing a game against DoC soon & I am thinking of putting a chief with the other tricksters shard on a Stegadon. Am I correct in thinking that when the Stagadon charges all impact hits and subsequent wounds will force any daemon to reroll ward saves caused by it? If it does then it could with a bit of luck destroy a greater daemon on the charge.

 

[Hebus]

Yes, it is right. other shard works on any model in base contact with wearer, friend or foe.

 

[Ratlizardelfguy]

I used the skink chief on a stegadon with the other tricksters shard & it worked well. If I give him the dragonbane gem, will it give the Stegadon the 2+ ward save vs flaming attacks?

 

[SanDiegoSurrealist]

No just the rider.
A flaming cannon ball can still shoot the Steg out from under the hero.

 

[n810]

I'd go with the "Iron Curse Icon" instead.

 

[Ratlizardelfguy]

I was just having a discussion on another forum (yea sorry, but I think we need to see other forums ) regarding my Other Tricksters Shard on a Stegadon. I was told that impact hits and stomps do not get the benefit of OTS.

One small thing for the shard weilding skink. You only reroll wards in base contact so if you charge into a big unit of infantry the impact and stomps are distributed as shooting. Ie by the daemon player who will take the hits on guys NOT in base contact.....so no rerolls.

What do you think? Is this correct?

 

[tor]

If nothings changed stomps dont benefit from special rules and magic items. Against greaterdaemons theres no debate he rerolls his ward. Iwould say no reroll against infantry as long as there is modells taking wounds not in basecontact.
Impacthits do benwfit from special rules though.

 

[Sleboda]

I'm not so sure this is a case of the stomp receiving the benefit of the item.

Let's say you have an item that gives your attacks the Flaming special rule. Stomps would not become flaming stomps. Sure, that's fine.

If your rider had an item that gave +1 to Wound, the stomps would not benefit. Also clear.

In this case, it's not the stomp that is gaining the rule. It's an item in contact with an enemy and the enemy's own ward saves are affected. In essence, the rule is not interacting with Stomp at all.

What it you had a Empire General with the Shard and he was touching a lone model with a ward, then a mortar shot scattered off into that combat and touched the lone model. Wouldn't the ward still have to be re-rolled?

It's nothing to do with the Empire Character doing something, as clearly in this case all he is doing is standing around. The mortar shot is no more "benefiting" from the Shard than Stomps are. It's just that the model with the ward is forced to re-roll HIS rolls when he is wounded.


Another way to phrase it would be to say that with or without the Shard, the attacker hits the same and wounds the same. The things the attacker is doing (the things that he could claim a benefit on) remain unchanged. It is the action of the victim that are affected by the Shard. Stomps are not benefiting from the Shard, the opponent's ward is being penalized.

 

[Ratlizardelfguy]

Supposing the skink charged a daemon unit from the rear? If you take casualties from the rear then would there then be an argument for stomps/impacts rerolling ward saves?

If nothings changed stomps dont benefit from special rules and magic items

Where is this stated? I'm sorry if it's in plain site in the rulebook I'm just missing that bit.

What it you had a Empire General with the Shard and he was touching a lone model with a ward, then a mortar shot scattered off into that combat and touched the lone model. Wouldn't the ward still have to be re-rolled?

To be honest I think yes, the magic item states any model in base contact rerolls successful ward saves, it doesn't state the hits are from close combat hits, this is why I'm having a bit of trouble with the interpretation.

 

[tor]

Q: Do Stomp or Thunderstomp hits benefit from any other special rules, equipment or magic items of the model that inflicts the hits? (p76)
A: No.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180060a_WARHAMMER_RULEBOOK_v1.8_APRIL13.pdf

Sleboda makes a good argument, not sure though.

 

[VampTeddy]

Q: Do Stomp or Thunderstomp hits benefit from any other special rules, equipment or magic items of the model that inflicts the hits? (p76)
A: No.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180060a_WARHAMMER_RULEBOOK_v1.8_APRIL13.pdf

Sleboda makes a good argument, not sure though.

The magic item inflicts no hits - it forces models in combat to reroll it's succesful ward saves.

 

[tor]

Of cource It´s not the magic item that makes the hits but thats irrelevant, the point Is that they never benefit from effects like; Magic that increases strength or makes it easier to wound, items that gives you magic attacks, flaming attacks or whatever. The question though Is does the stomp benefit from a ward save being rerolled?
You could argue that It doesn´t because It doesn´t change the stomp In any way and you could argue that It´s clear that magic and special rules doesn´t affect stomps in any way at all, period, nope none.

This faq Is important to remember because It can be especially beneficial when fighting units with Banner of the world Dragon.

 

[VampTeddy]

Of cource It´s not the magic item that makes the hits but thats irrelevant, the point Is that they never benefit from effects like; Magic that increases strength or makes it easier to wound, items that gives you magic attacks, flaming attacks or whatever. The question though Is does the stomp benefit from a ward save being rerolled?
You could argue that It does´t because It does´t change the stomp In any way and you could argue that It´s clear that magic and special rules affect stomps in any way at all, period, nope none.

This faq Is important to remember because It can be especially beneficial when fighting units with Banner of the world Dragon.

That actually isn't irrelevant when the faq in question states what it does.

The stomps are never affected by the OtS, only the model in base contact.

So the stomps are not affected by the magic item in any way (which the FAQ you quoted addresses), only the model in contact with the model bearing the OtS is affected.

OtS states : "Models in base contact with the bearer (friends and foes) must reroll successful ward saves"

Point out to me, in the above sentence where it isn't clear cut that the models attacks in no way are affected by OtS and you'll have me convinced it isn't obvious that OtS forces rerolls on anything as long as a model is in base contact with the wearer. Because as it stands there's not an argument (that has currently been brought forth) that makes this a grey zone at all unless there's another faq i am not aware of.

The model in base contact with the model bearing the OtS rerolls successful ward saves - done, that is the ruling. There is no other rules that gets in the way here, or states anything that changes this fact.

EDIT: reread the FAQ again, still strongly disagree because the stomp doesn't benefit, but rather the model that receives the stomp gets punished (which i do not see as the same thing), i see no direct benefit but i can see why you'd argue for the other version nonetheless, i would just never accept playing with it, if i could play it the other way around - whether or not i was using, or my opponent was using the OtS. ^^

 

[tor]

Yeah thats what you think, but it´s not what your opponent might think. What I´m trying to do Is just pointing out that It´s not as clear as you might think.

 

[Khornefed]

Id be careful on the OTS/Stomp question. OTS is not directly benefiting the stomp. It is denying or reducing the benefit of the targets Ward. The effect of the OTS is being applied to the target, not to the stomp itself. Look very carefully at what an items effect is actually doing before deciding weather it affects stomp (or impact hits). So anything that modifies a stomps strength or # of attacks is not allowed. And those are the only things "benefit" a stomp attack.

 

[Man0waR]

You have to reroll every successful ward save when you are b2b to an OTS wielder.

You roll a ward save. You success? you reroll it (even friendlies have to). Rules are pretty clear here

 

[Eladimir]

Yep agreed, has nothing to do with the steg.
if he was onfoot in a unit of skinks the skink wounds would cause ward rerolls

 

[Khornefed]

Yeah thats what you think, but it´s not what your opponent might think. What I´m trying to do Is just pointing out that It´s not as clear as you might think.

Agreed. And I have actually had this debate in a tourney. But I "won" (hate that thought) by giving another example. If by having a +1 Res banner, I win a combat by +1 where stomps were used, than by the weird logic some people try to pull, they could say the banner does not count because the stomps were part of the combat, and cannot "benefit".

The rule itself for stomps should have been worded something like "Stomps may only benefit from effects that directly effect the strength profile of the model or specifically state they affect the stomp attacks."

But then I wonder about things like WOC DPs that have "Burning Body". Are their stomp attacks burning or not? If yes, then you have something affecting the stomp attack. But if not, how do you justify that the stomps are NOT burning? If I stomp you with my foot afire, I'm pretty sure you are going to think its a flaming attack!

 

[twistedmagpie]

I'd like to note that even though you're removing models from the rear of a unit, you are still actually damaging the models you're in base contact with so the OTS would take effect.

 

[Ratlizardelfguy]

I'd like to note that even though you're removing models from the rear of a unit, you are still actually damaging the models you're in base contact with so the OTS would take effect.

This how I believe the item works.