I posted some of this on another thread but though it deserves its own thread: I will edit and add to this. Lord Kroak: Compare him with a similar 400 point Slann. He gets +1 to ward saves (worth about 15ss or mroe going from 4+ to 3+ ward). He makes the unit -1 to hit in close combat and BS shooting (which is huge, like Mark of Nurgle probably worth a lot with the TG block) worth at least 1ss per model and as much as 2ss per model in terms of survivability, or at least 50 and as much as 100 points in a decent TG unit. He makes the unit unbreakable and is unbreakable (note that the model ihas the unbreakable special rule even without TG and also makes its TG unit unbreakable). That means that the Lord does not break and get run down like happens the to Slann if his unit dies or the unit hs a really bad dice roll on a break test (or gets hit with a spell that lowers LD and then fails the break test). He has a miscast limitation that generally keeps him from being blown up early in the battle and limits severely the chance of decimating the TG or saurus unit he is in, whereas miscasts can, even with soul of stone, often kill a lot of TG models because of the Slann's footprint in the unit. That has to be worth at least 50 points. His point cost is just low enough that at the standard 2500 point battles in our tournaments, you can spend 225 on an oldblood, which is enough for a great weapon or cheap weapon and 5pt magic shield option, armour of destiny and dawnstone in Kroak's unit. However, he does not have to wide selection of augment and hex spells of a Slann and cannot take magic items, so you need skink priests for the magic defense of a dispel scroll, cube, or sceptre of stability (combine with cloak of feathers) and lore of beasts for wyssans (less need for heavens for iceshard with the death mask although great if stacks with death mask -1 to hit). This, his base value is probably a bit less than a Slann. It is also apparent that he cannot be the BSB. But, his one spell is awesome when paired with a skink priest in a fast skrox or skink skirmisher unit or with cloak of feathers in terms of ability to fly out. into the midst of the enemy army. Note that his spell targets "all" enemy units within 12" and is 2D6 S4 hits and can be boosted. Thus, it apparently over-rides the typical BRB restrictions on direct damage spell targets being in front arc but iand appears to over-ride the limit on not casting ito target units in combat (another FAQ to ensure correct??). However, unlike the previous version of the spell which explicity says that it can target models in cc, this version does not have that explicit language. Furthermore, against TK, Daemons, and VC armies he gets 3D6 hits. Start with a base value of 250 to 300, add 50 for death mask, 30 for +1 ward (adding +1 ward when already at 4+ ward is worth double or more of adding a 6+ ward worth 15 points in the BRB), 30 to 50 for unbreakable, and 50 for miscast limitation. Under that approach, Korak is undeer costed or fairly priced. Tetto'Eko is the only other undercosted special character and is an interesting alternative to a Slann build run in a skrox unit horde where he can reliably stay in the second rank and the re-roll 1's to cast 5/6 ot the time, boosts the casting ability of him and the skink preists quite a bit. Loremaster Heavens is very good, 5+ ward save for a model in the second rank of the unit is good, pal keeps him safe from dreaded 13th (minor given likely size of unit), and Eye of Old Ones is pretty big with D3 units able to vanguard and get out there faster. But he is not broken. base value of 50ss, plus 15ss for ward save, plus 15 to 25ss for pal ability to keep out of combat, plus 15 ss for loremaster, plus maybe 50ss for re-roll 1's when casting ability allowing casting wyssans and other spells with two dice much more reliably (but re-rolling 1's is a must and increases the risk of miscasts considerablywhen throwing 2 or more dice at spells). Start wiith a base skink priest at lvl 2., then add the ability to hide in second rank, the value of a 5+ ward save (30 points?), the value of D3 free vanguard moves (huge for stegs and some units in terms of getting them into combat a lot faster or getting a skink priest or skink skirmisher or sally unit closer to required range;20-30 points?), loremaster (25 -35 points and giving you enough spells to run two lore of beast skink priests with dispel scroll, cube or sceptre to improve magic defense) and the eye of the old ones re-roll of 1's which is huge for lvl 2's casting heavens and beast lore spells with two or three dice (50 points?). That gets this model up to a range of value of at least 230, making him a no brainer, especially in a list with an old blood or Kroq-Gar filling the Lord slot. I ran similar numbers on Kroq-Gar. and he was just barly worth his point cost but very vulnerable to cannons and stome throwers. The problem with him is that he knocks out the ability to run a slann, forcing you to either spam skink priests with multiple dispel items (scroll, cube, sceptre). He is basically an oldblood with +1 attack , no access to magic items (huge given common magic items), and 5+ ward for him and his mount. The mount is a carnosaur with swiftstride, no blook frenzy but +1 attack. With the 5+ ward on the mount while the character is alive, the mount is probably worth 275 to 300 points. The rider is worth an oldblood with a bound spell (25 points), magic spear (30 points?), and 5+ ward save (30 points). He gets no re-rollable armour save, however, and cannot get to the 4+ ward save of an oldblood. That makes Kroq-Gar worth around 225 points and the entire model worth about its point cost but eliminating the option of a second lord. My experience running Daemons is that a 5+ ward is jsut not enough in an enviroment, metagame, with relaible cannnons and some stone throwers. That makes this a reasonably costed special model but with serious vulnerability in my currernt metagame (seeing dwarf cannons and grudges, brett trebs, doom divers, ironblasters, hellblasters and empire great cannons, and skullcannons). Gor-Rok might be just worth his points cost or is underrcosted if used correctly. He gets +1T over scar vet and is abile 5/6 of the time to avoid multiple wounds and KB, +1 sscaly skin, re-roll to hit and PF on 5+ with his magic weapon, and +2 AS with his shield , but he has no light armour, no ward save, and no re-roll of armour save option on a two wound model with I3. If you are in an environment with a lot of S4 and S5 models likely to face Gor-Rok, then the +1T is equivalent worth a 4+ to 5+ ward save in combat in comparison with scar vets (20 points). The shield with the dangerous terrain test if Gor-Rok is charged is potentailly very valuable (30 to 50 points), the mace re-roll to hit an 5+ PF is like givng a scar vet an extra 2 attacks on average (30 to 40 points). His stubborn ability would be great in a smaller scar vet unit or horde formation iif he had a re-rollable armour save or ward save given his ability to avoid multi-wound and KB on 2+ (with spears to max attacks?) (in a larger unit, the unit is likely to be steadfast or win combat anyway; maybe worth 40 points with multi=wound and KB avoidance). All in all, Gor-Rok becomes clearly worth his points or under-costed if used in certain settings and able to pick his battles but he dies against a model or unit with enough reliable S5+ attacks that are reliable (like sowrdmasters, white lions, DE execs with ASF banner, demigryphs, mournfang cav, hydras, etc. and just ends up giving up VPs greater than he kills or he and his unit on average will earn in combat. Tehenhuan is the only other special character of interest because of his high LD for a skink and ability to allow for a decent oldblood or light slann in the lord slot with him. A lvl 3 lore of beasts wizard with 5+ scaly skin and 5+ ward is pretty good. Not sold on running him with jungle swarms given a 5+ AS amd 5+ ward and 3 wounds is not a lot and his +1 S sword on the charge + poison is not worth much with 3 attacks., nor is his I1 D6 Ws2 S2 poison snake cc attack. You can justify paying his points cost based on a a lvl 3 beats caster with 3 wounds, a 5+ AS ,and 5+ ward and cold-blooded leadership 8 if you hid him in a skink bunker screened by other units but if you add up what is worthwhile, he really is probably overcosted by 15ss. I'm not charging this characters into combat, so the +1 S on the charge weapon benefit is useless but the poison is maybe worth something when he had to fight. I'm not putting him in a unit of jungle swarms to make them unbreakable because my opponent would gladly charge and try to kill him with his T3, 5+ AS and 5+ ward save given that they can win combat against swams. Similarly, his D6 S2 snake attacks with poison does very little (maybe .5 wounds). I want this charactdr free to cast amber spear boosted and wyssan's and something else too often. The bottom line is he is worth base lvl 3 with 3 wounds and those stats somewhere between 170 and 200 points and the 5+ ward and 5+ AS is worth 35 to 40 points, which is close enough to justify using this character with either a modest slann or a fully kitted oldblood. He gives units with the PF rule within 6" the ability to restrain pursuit as a skink priest character but he cannnot take a dispell scroll, cube or sceptre of stability, which is something I want to use with a skink priest character with the loss of the old becalming. Tiktaq'to: He is basically a skink chief with +1LD mounted on a special terradon with none of the armour options and no common magic points available. 7LD is potentially great given low skink leadership in a unit of Terradons or especially Rippers. But the price is not right. He should have that option. The blade with a possibly +1 to hit (only against units with flying, good for dealing with furies, or harpies and such) and no armour saves makes him an interesting assasin of models with lower T but high armour saves. 3 attacks hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's, combined with I6, might be enough to deal with a war priest with a mage or character with T3 even with some armour save or relying on a high armour save. The problem is he probably ends up in a challenge unless he charges with a unit with a champ to take the challenge. Basically, with the inability to take extra armour and the +1 LD, he has a base value of maybe70 to 80 points. The sword is worth 30 tp 50 points, depending on the matchup (sometimes it will be useless)? I couild see a role for this character in a larger ripperdactyl unit with a skink chief or at least a champion and a character assassin unit. or in a unit designed to take out light skirmishers and scout units (especially in mirror match, taking out skink skirmishers and chameleon skinks). Tiktaq'to probably dies in the first combat phase but he likely gets to swing and might sneak in a wound or two on a valuable T3 character and that might be worth, especially with a skink chief on ripper and rippers, especially if a toad is on the target unit. But no matter how this model is broken down, he is worth significantly less or modestly less than his points cost. Worse yet, in the Brettonia FAQ it says: "Q: Can a character riding a Royal Pegasus join a unit of Pegasus Knights? (p55) A: No." So, that implies that until an FAQ or errata changes that ruling, neither Tik, nor a skink chief of a ripper or a terradon, can actually joint a unit or rippers or terries. This prevents them from lending their leadership to those units and gaining a full look ou sir and the allocation of BS shooting hits from the unit. Oxyotl: Nope. I can buy a total of 9 cham skinks or 17 skink skirmishers for his cost and still have a point or two left over. Okay, +2 LD and +2 BS, +1S, and +1T over cham skinks is a big bonus. But he only has 3 12" poison shots with the sniper rule. Assume his moves and shoots at long range with multiple shot penalty that is a rate of hiting on a 3+ as compared with The 5+ poison ability requires that he not have moved, which, in my experience, is not likely for cham skinks that need to use their free reform and march and shoot flexiblity to constantly move around to avoid being charged or hit with spells and get into close enough range to hit with poison. The Sniper benefit is tough when he oftne must get into the froth arc to see the character in the front rank unless the character is on a corner iof the front rank. Then the character needs to have a poor armour save and limited ward save to have a chance of causing a wond with a poison hit or hit and wound rolls. The S4, WS4 and I6 with 3 attacks does mean this model might risk a charge on a weaker war machine (orc & goblin or empire crews without engineer or orc upgrades) and win combat enough to pay off while the rest of the unit shoots something else. Chakax: This is a disappointment. I wonder if GW really understand how the game is played beyond a berr and pretzels environment. He is basically a unit champion and a scar vet in one model. His point cost is more than three times the base cost of a scar vet and twice the cost of a fully kitted scar vet on foot. He would be pretty good, almost worthwhile, if you could ensure he always ends up in a challenge. In a challenge, he gets to re-roll to hit and a 5+ ward save and the opposing model gets ASL. He also makes a TG unit with a Slann unbreakable. The problem is that too many units: certain monsters, monstrous cav, high S infantry, etc. can kill Chakax without accepting a challenge. Chakax's magic weapon gives him +2S but ASL. Also, if Chakax hits a model with a magic item, then on a 5+ he destroys one randomly determined magic item that is still effect (ignore one use items already used or no longer usable). So, he will deter a model with a magic item charging into his unit. His magic armouir just increases his armour save to 3+ (light armour, 5+ scaly, helm) and prevents scouts from deploying within 20" at the start. Base cost plus light armour plus magic helm makes Chakaz equal to maybe 95 to 100 points base value. The magic weapon is probably worth 30 to 50 points optimistically. The 5+ ward in a challenge and re-roll in a challenge is probably worth at most 30 points (most of the time usefless but deters a unit with a character that will have to take the challenge or character from lone charging his unit until he is dead). That means he is still overcosted by 50ss even if one is optimistic. The way I'd deal with him is charge with something that strikes before the TG unit with no character and with high S and single out and kill Chakax. The VPs from killing Chakax will justify the loss of the charging unit, even if a hydra or a chimera. or three demigrypjhs or skullcrushers. Chakax might limit the risk by always staying on the end of the front rank so that only one or two models can hit him if the charging unit must max combat on the charge and is not as wide (3 monstrous beasts or monstrous cav could only get one model on Chakaz against a TG unit 6 models wide with Chakax on the end). Also, he is vulnerable to certain lore of death spells and poor look out sirs on lore of metal hounds spell. Lord Maz: He obviously can only be played in very large battles of 3200 or greater. I don't see those battles too often in either competitive or casual play. Maybe in a team battle in a campaign where the two opposing players play at 2400 or 2500 points and you play with 4800 or 5000 points. Thus, I dealt with him last. There are obivous issues with putting your lvl 4 on an ancient steg. I do not understand why GW keeps insisting on costing out monsters and big characters as though they are invulnerable when they can be killed or seriously wounded too easily with the cannons and stone throwers with no guess range in 8th ed. The Lord gets a 2+ armour save on the ancient steg mount and a 4+ ward save that does not apply to the mount. He has: loremaster, soul of stone, becalming, harmonic convergence, and transcendant hearing. He is also stubborn (as is his mount). If you were to point cost the model based on the army book, you have a Slann BSB with 18" range but vulnerable to certain magic spells (pit of shades and purple sun are big issues for the mage and his mount). and cannons and stone throwers. He is mounted on an ancient steg (no sharpened horns or unstoppable stamped). He has the equivalent of five disciplines (loremaster being better than in the army book because it applies to all lores, not just high magic) and the crown of command worth a total of approximtely 185 points. Shooting within 12" range is -1 to hit fthe model one shooting phase, not worth that much typically. sicne high S shooting at beyond 12" are the big threat to get past the armour save and wound the slann or steg or both (blots, stones, doom divers, and cannons). His mace allows him to destroy one magic item on something in combat with him if he hits (WS2, so assume hits on a 5=) and then rolls a 6 on a D6 (not very likely and can't count on it). Thus, he prices out as a regular slann with five disciplines on an ancient steg with crown of command and with the -1 to hit at short range at around 740 points which is not enough to justify the points cost, even if youi are confident of not seeing cannons and stone throwers or massed bolt throwers (which you will start to see with high elf armies). Thus, beyond the metagame competitive risks one will face playing this model in an all-comers list, the model is overpriced. You are better off with a regular slann with a TG unit bunker with crown of command and foru disciplines and a separate ancient steg. Of the disciplines, soul of stone is undercosted (worth almost twice its points on a regular slann), becalming is slightly undercosted, loremaster (esp with High Magic) is slightly undercosted, and transcentdant healing is worth a lot on a character not in a unit and so exposed directly to shooting and magic damage (at least 50 to 75 points). Thus, if we recost the disciplines asnd consider the synergy of five together on one slann, one can justify the points cost of Lord Mazd but only in campaign or casual game when you know you will not see cannons, stone throwers, and or bolt throwers. in the shooting phase. Additionally, there are too many magic lores with spells to deal with this model: such as, for example, 1. Lore of Shadow (Pit of Shades and Pendulum plus mindrazor on a unit in combat with the lord kills him or the steg with too high of a probability), 2. Lore of Metal (high wound rate and no armour save on both searing doom and golden hounds); 3. Lore of Death (spirit leach, fate of bjuna on the slann, purple sun all ignore armour saves and purple sun ignores ward save), Lore of Heavens (thunderbolt and chain lightning are both S6), Coven of Light (banishment at S6+), Lore of Beasts (Amber Spear boosted can outright kill the steg a D6 roll of 5+ and the slann with a failed ward save and 5+ on a D6 multiwound; savage beasts on a character that is tough and buffed can cut through the armour save and put out enough attacks to kill the steg first and then the slann). Kill the steg and you have a caster stuck out on the battlefield with only 1 attack at S3 that might destroy a magic weapon in combat one out of 18 combat phases that is vulnerable to magic, shooting and close combat with only T4, no AS and a 4+ ward save. The Healing Discipline only heals a single lost wound at the end of a friendly magic phase one out of six times. Thus, if the slann has suffered three wounds already, he would recover on average one wound 50% of the time (slightly different odds because of the possibility of recovering only one wound is 34.7%, recovering two wounds ioccurs 2 7.4% of the time, recovering all 3 lost wounds is one out of 216 chance or 1.4%). That is not enough to save Lord M. if he ends up in combat and has lost his mount (losing his 2+ AS in the process) unless a TG unit is available to join with him immediately after he loses his steg mount.
Kroak I'm holding off on until the FAQ. If it's all enemies within 12/18/24 regardless of line of sight and combat, he can be a very good choice. If it's just those out of combat and in line of sight, it's a lot worse. I think he might shine best in a 2,000 point list. Tetto: I think he's best with the slaan. The boost to casting dice is is massive, and the better the caster, the better that boost becomes. The Vanguard also opens up some death star options... like ~10 Krox starting 12" from the enemy. Or salamander, or steggadon ancients. I would consider him worth the cost just for the power boost to other wizards and the vanguard. Gor-Rok: You seemed to miss stubborn on his list of abilities. S5 T6 2+ armor and stubborn. Re-rolls to hit, and extra attacks on a 5+ to hit. ~60 points less, you get a scar vet with 2+ and stubborn. That means for 60 points you're getting 1 point of toughness, magical attacks, re-rolls to hit, and the 5+ Predatory Fighter. Oh, that and the possibility to ignore KB/Multiple wounds. While he seems like a pretty good deal, the real advantage is the ability to have TWO stubborn heroes and stick stubborn where you want it. Tehenhuan: He's a level 3, and a lord. I think his niche is steggadon spam. He can ride an ancient as a lord choice (with sharp hornes). You can get 2 more ancients as mounts for heroes, and 2 more as rares. At 2400, you can fill minimum core, and have 5 Stegadon Ancients all with the Multiple Wounds D3, and still have 190 points left over to play with (specials or more core). As a 5th ancient, he might be viable, in a very specialized build. Mazdamoney is just to expensive to rate. If you can't play in less than 3,000+ points, I don't care what your rules are. Oxyolt is most likely going to need a 4+ or 5+ to hit with his 3 shots (using sniper), with only 6+ for poison. If you're lucky, you'll snipe a back up wizard. Maybe if you can get a walk between worlds off (so he doesn't move in his movement phase for the 5+ poison) he'd be a little better; but at his cost, it's too much buck for too little bang. Tictaq'to is in the same boat os Oxyotl. He's bringing melee buffs to a unit that doesn't want to see combat. Ambushing looks good, but bringing 2S4 attacks per model, and 1S4 supporting isn't going to cut it. By the time you could charge, its too late to be useful. You're better off just 4 terradons instead of this guy and saving 30 points. In summary, Gor Rok for a 2nd stubborn block. Possibly Kroak in any list replacing your normal slaan (pending FAQ on his spell). Tetto 'eko in magic heavy list. Everyone else gets too expensive or extremely situational. -Matt
Only Terradons. Doesn't make sense. It is rippers that you want to be able to ambush with. Terradons get flying cav, so they are better vaguarding and dropping rocks, not great charging war machines due to limits on monstrous cav in combat with war machines and no stomps. whereas rippers get a lot more attacks, a 4+ AS (instead of 5+ for terries), and want to get into combat. Similarly, rippers can threaten a character in a small bunker (like engineer or mage in an archer detachment in empire or or goblin bunker for a cheap goblin BSB bunker screened by savage orcs (although risky to charge with fanatics typically present). Also, Matt, I did discuss the stubborn (at least in the edit) on Gor-Rok but my concern is that his is killed too quickly in some cases for the stubborn ability to matter for more than one combat phase, if even that. Maybe putting him on the corner of a large unit keeps him alive a bit longer but ironguts would put too many S6 attacks on him for his to survive the first combat phase.
Technically he can't even join units.....but that is silly just put him in a unit and if someone complains then your playing with trolls...... Once that is decided it is Terradons only says "....one unit of Terradon Riders can be upgraded to have the Ambushers special rule"
I saw people saying he cannot join a unit and was aware of that. I assume that there is a very high probability that GW will fix the obvious conflict between the intent of allowing skink chiefs and Tik to join with Terradons or Ripper units and the strict literal reading of the BRB. I suspect the problem resuilts from the skirmisher limitation on characters on mounts not being allowed to join with skirmisher units being written without considering flying cavalry and characters on flying mounts. In fact, the fly rule discussion has language on page 70 implying a unit of fliers might be joined by a model without flying. The problem is that in the skirmisher special rule discussion on page 77 it says that a character on a mount cannot join a unit of skirmishers. The issue is fixed if GW issues an errata stating that a mounted character may also join a unit with the skirmisher special rule if and only if the models in the unit are of the same type and will gain the skirmish special rule if it joins such a unit. Terradons and ripperdactyls technically do not have the skirmish special rule but act as though they do through having the flying cavalry special rule. Instead, they have the flying cavalry speical rule which causes the unit to use a skirmish formation per page 70 and to gain the skirmisher special rule. I suspect this is one of those situations where GW didn't work through the logic of the language in the BRB with respect to the skirmisher, fly and flying cavalry special rules discussed on pages 70 and 77 and, thus, the language as written results in a counterintuitive and obviously wrong restriction. I suspect Bretts with peg units and characters on pegs will similarly ultimately be allowed an exception to the skirmisher rule. On the other hand, in the Brettonian FAQ's, the following answer is very clear: "Q: Can a character riding a Royal Pegasus join a unit of Pegasus Knights? (p55) A: No." So, at least someone in GW was clearly aware of the issue, even though it makes no sense that a captain on a peg can join with a unit of demigryphs but character on a peg in Brettonia cannot join with peg knights.