8th Ed. stegadon vs cannon

[Lord Tsunami]

in the rulebook, it says that if a ridden monster is hit by a template weapon (cannon in this case) BOTH rider(s) and mount are hit (randomize the high strength hit from a catapult). that would mean that if a stegadon is hit by a cannon, both the stegadon and ALL riders are hit (bye bye skinks).

however, in our rulebook it says that missile fire (yes, a cannon ball is a missile) is randomized 1-4 on steg and 5-6 on riders.

the rule "food chain" goes FAQ>armybook>rulebook. this should mean that if a cannonball bounces over a stegadon it will hit ONLY the stegadon on 1-4 and ONLY ALL riders on 5-6.

how do you guys play this out?

 

[Arli]

Unfortunately, everyone I know plays it that the cannonball hits everyone. It would be nice to play it that way though. It actually makes more sense that way. I just do not see it happening though. Our rulebook does over rule the BRB on that, so I guess it could be argued. I do not remember seeing anything in the FAQs about that rule. Not sure if I am missing something.

 

[n810]

Steg Vs Cannon....

Cannon wins.

 

[Lord Cedric]

I didn't think that cannons were template weapons thus that rule wouldn't apply? Same as Bolt Throwers? Or am I missing something?

- Lord Cedric

 

[TheRolfgar]

Cannon's are templates. Small, cannon ball sized ones.

 

[strewart]

I'm pretty sure in parts the main BRB also mentions the hitting monsters on 1-4, and riders on 5-6 rule. Unfortunately, it applies to standard shooting attacks and thus it is not even a case of BRB>LM book, it is seperate rules for different situations.

 

[T`hinker`er]

On a similar note, if a cannon shoots at a Sallie, I believe you do not randomize as you would with normal shooting.

 

[Lord Cedric]

Cannon's are templates. Small, cannon ball sized ones.

Hmm. Ok. Could you please show me where it says Cannons are a template weapon? The only place I see mention of use is a coin or token to be used as the initial marker only. Also in the BRB, it only lists 3 types of templates, none of which the cannon uses. Sorry, not trying to be critical or argumentive. We've always played it in 8th that the cannon doesn't get the template rules because we did not see anywhere it mentions the use of an actual template. Thank you for the help.

- Lord Cedric

 

[HoverBoy]

Could you please show me where it says Cannons are a template weapon?

BRB page 105, in the ridden monster rules theres a subrule named "templates" that outlines it all.

 

[Lord Cedric]

Could you please show me where it says Cannons are a template weapon?

BRB page 105, in the ridden monster rules theres a subrule named "templates" that outlines it all.

Wow. Thanks HoverBoy. Though the Cannon isn't considered a templated machine (cancelling out normal template rules), it affects the monstrous and mounts like one. lol. Geez.. a simple bracketed/inserted text changing the whole aspect of a single machine.. which imo should have been included on the Cannon's rule description page as well.
Once again, thank you.

- Lord Cedric

 

[Lord Tsunami]

so... no one has any other argument that "ppl wouldnt like it" to why the armybook rule (randomizing hits) would not override the rulebook? the fact that there is a part in the BRB that talks about randomizing normal BS shooting on monsters is irrelevant since there is a paragraph in our armybook that specifically handles shooting against a stegadon.

Just like the new monsters (spider, sphinx, thundertusk etc.) have special rules that en effect overrides the normal rules for shooting at them (crew cant be hit and so on), so does the stegadon. just of a different kind. RAW, it should be randomized, and RAI is not really applicable, since the rules for the stegadon are meant for a completly different edition of warhammer, where you actually DID randomize even cannonballs. RAI it should be randomized as well in that case....

i would have a hard time to argue that the cannonball would only hit one skink if it is randomized to hit the crew (unless there is a character on board), but ill take any small victory i can

 

[T`hinker`er]

Anything on page 105 that talks about skirmishing units, like the Sallie? I'm at work right now and can't check.

 

[Coatl]

i guess the question would be would you randomize ALL missle attacks, even templates? i think if it said randomize all ranged attacks youd have a stronger case. though then you could randomize spells too . it would be nice if they had a specific definition of missle in the book for support. i will agree that there is a case there, im just not sure how strong it is without checking it out myself (work)

you also can't use the new units as a basis for how the rule should be because those come from new 8th edition books, where they have had a chance to properly mesh them with the current rules. there are bound to be missed holes for older books.

 

[Stonecutter]

Cannons are not missile weapons, they are war machine and have a "special kind of template" (pg. 113 under who's been hit). This is confirmed by Lord Cedric's ref from page 105 so everything touched by the template suffers S10 hit doing d6 wounds.

Missile weapons are defined on page 88.

For sallies, they come under the M&H rules and since that came out after the army book, the M&H rules for being hit by a template or missile take precedence. The handlers are completely ignored, consider them wound markers or part of a diorama. Consequently, all ranged attacks are resolved against only the sallies (so a template touching handlers and not the sallies misses). If the sallies fail the armour save, the wound is then randomized with 5+ killing a handler. It is really weird but a cannon or something real nasty with multiple wounds damage can hit and on a 5+ only a skink handler dies! Best 5+ ward save in the game!!

 

[Lord Cedric]

The Warhammer game itself is very complex in its rules system. That being said, it is truly hard to either find, know where to look (as GW seems to place important rules in the less obvious places), remember (especially with 3 ore more game edition stuck in-memory), or know *all* the rules. It also seems that for many of GW's rulings, some of the rules could have been placed in more appropriate places.. or at least where a quick reference to them would be easier.

One of the biggest problems that I have is trying to remember all the "'other" rules that are situational and don't come up that often. .. well, that and still remembering rules from 4th edition on up. I sincerely applaud (and albiet jealous) of those who can keep all or most of it straight. To a point, I almost think that those who are new to the game and 8th edition is their first, perhaps remembering some rules may be easier without the mind cross-realming into older versions.

- Lord Cedric

 

[Stonecutter]

Lord Cedric, I couldn't agree with you more about confusing different editions and the "latest" rule updates. Kind of reminds me of the old story about too much knowledge making the multiple choice questions far harder than they really are

 

[Eladimir]

Was a good thread to read but I have to say I was cheering for stegs until hoverboy slammed it home with the pg105 ruling.

I love my steg I just don't bring him to tournaments. (Empire and Dwarves everywhere)

 

[Lord Tsunami]

thanks stonecutter for a great reply with page references and everything

however, i am still not convinced.

Cannons are not missile weapons...
...
Missile weapons are defined on page 88.

not quite true. there is no proper definition on pg 88. it only says that "special weapons includes everything that isnt a hand weapon, even missile weapons such as bow crossbow and so on...". there is no "a missile weapon is XXXX" anywhere (unless im blind lol). hence i do not buy the argument that a cannon ball is not a "missile hit" (<-the exact wording in our armybook, pg55)

the rules on page 105 and 113 were already covered in my previous argument. if a hit from a cannon is a "missile hit" (and it was, at least when the stegadon rules were written) then it will be randomized as described in the stegadon rules.

HOWEVER i did hear an argument in another forum, that you could say that both teh stegadon and all skinks are hit by template attacks (so 6 hits in total) and THEN you randomize those 6 hits. that means that a single cannonball would hit the stegadon 4 times (on average) and most likely killing him. i have a much harder time arguing against that (except that it is ludicrous, lol)

 

[HoverBoy]

You want RAW, pure RAW. Ok i'll give it to ya but it is really stupid.

So as per page 105 the cannon would cause 6 hits, one steg and five skinks, buuut we have the unique steg randomisation rule. So in the end you randomise all 6 of those, on average the steg gets 4 cannon hits, enjoy.