So, the new supporting attack only get one attack each, and spears now just let you make supporting attacks with a additional rank. So i guess giving spears to suarus' lets them have as many attacks now as they did back in 7th ... we got screwed ... unless some one can find a passage and tell me otherwise ...
Yeah thats pretty much the consensus. They still get more attacks than most, but you do need an extra rank to have the same output as they used to in 7th. Seems there is a swing back to the hand weapon and shield after a brief (1-2 year) fling with spears in 7th ed.
I've tried using saurus both ways in 8th, first as a hoard with spears against Dark Elves, and then as a normal size unit using hand weapon against the Daemons. The spear saurus were depleted by Black Guards quickly enough that the extra attacks didn't offer a benefit for very long. The hand weapon saurus, however, were able to hold their own against bloodletters for a surprising amount of time, and the parry save proved it's worth against killing blow repeatedly. As I'm not looking forward to converting every last one of my models to depict a hand weapon, I'm wondering how many spear models I can get away with including in a unit and still not get arguments in a strict tournament setting.
Easy enough solution. If you still have the sprue that contained the hand weapons, just cut the hands off and glue the handweapons to the side of the spear saurus. I modeled my saurus with a spear and shield and I have been in the process of glueing hand weapons on them as well. It works fairly well and it looks good too.
Pretty sure the accepted amount is half to count as equipped with a certain weapon. Also the Saurus keep their hand weapons so why not equip with spears and choose which to use based on situation. Still technically legal.
Yep, in 8th ed you now have to use a weapon besides hand weapon if you have one. The general rule is above 50% of the unit, so I guess thats what you would need in a tournament. Against most opponents though, I imagine as long as it is very clear what the unit is equipped with (ie. first rank or two) they should be fine with it. And make sure you make it clear to them at the start of the battle as well.
Guess I'll just mix the spears in as best I can, maybe every 3rd- 4th model. Parry save is awesome, and free; plus, the hand weapons look great.
Is it just me or are spears still worth it anyways? I tried calculating to following: 6x4 saurus with either HW&S or spears vs: 10x5 Empire Swordsmen/Spearmen/Halberdsmen Against Empire Swordsmen or Spearmen, I kill 2 more models but lose 1/2 a model more on average. So, over 2 turns of combat, I lose 12 pts more of saurus but kill 20 points more of Empire guys. Also, I get to win combat resolution by 4 instead of by 2 (against swordsmen) and by 5 instead of by 3 (against lancemen). Against Halberdsmen, I lose one more guy per turn but kill 2 more. The empire is ahead by 2 points. But, I get 2 more kills than he does instead of 1. In all cases, I can afford to get charged and give him +1 for having charged since I get to use lances and get more kill. This is a great tactical advantage because it relieves me of any pressure to charge. Now, I also tried: 6x3 saurus with either HW&S or spears vs: 6x3 WoC with either 2HW/HW&S/GW My HW&S vs his HW&S: I lost 2 he lost 3 My spears vs his HW&S: I lost 3 he lost 4: so same results no matter what, but spears are better in the long run (he'll lose to attrition) My HW&S vs his 2HW: I lost 2 he lost 1 My spears vs his 2HW: I lost 2 he lost 2: so lances are better My HW&S vs his GW: I lost 8 he lost 3 My spears vs his 2HW: I lost 8 he lost 4: so spears are worst (you lose by less, but loses a lot of more expensive models. All in all, I'd wait before butchering my spears guys. In most cases you pay 18-24 pts per unit to releive yourself of the pressure to charge. Keep your units put, hold the line and buff them with your slanns! Are my maths right??? Phil
I think you mean spears rather than lances. It isn't that spears are now bad. It is simply that you need to have a complete 3rd rank in order to get your moneys worth from the spears. Sure if you have the complete rank spears will dish out more damage and yes you will take some more but it will end in your favor mostly.
Oups, edited (habit from french)! What I'm saying though, is that contrary to what seems the popular belief, HW&S didn't get better than spears. They went from worst to "less worse" (almost as good, but not quite). So should people build only HW&S, mostly HW&S, mostly spears or only spears?. My impression is that if you run 6x4 or 5x5 blocks, it's definitely spears you want. If you run 6x3, they are roughly equal... Phil
Humm ... correct me if i'm wrong but under the new rules models killed before their initiatives turn still get to strike (provided there are enough models in the unit to come from the back) ... so given that a large unit with spears might be ok ... is that how you were doing your math?
I'm considering just cliping off the ends of the spears and converting makeshift maces with them (then intermixing them with 'real' hand weapon dudes). This is also a very easy way to convert Temple Guard.
people, saurus were never ment to take out elite infantry, black guard or greatswords or grave guard or etc. rapedd them in 7th and do so now aswell, the advantage they have is that they can still dish out 20 attacks per round of CC and as long as you got 3 ranks after the opponent strikes you're ok. they were awsome in 7th when models were killed from the front rank, they didn't get any worse now, they stayed the same. indeed the bonus is only 5 attacks now instead of 10 but with the price of saurus and their huge I they need all the help they can get to even hope of defeating a horde, and with some luck they can even kill elite units if they are large enough (6x5; 5x6; 7x7) to survive the initial attacks, lets not forget that despite their awesome CC abilities, elite infantry is based on 7th rules where they charge, take out the front rank, and win the combat without taking casualties, this is not the case any more. Black Guard are WS 5 T3. thats 4+, 3+ for our saurus and they get a save of 6+ vs us. ofcourse we die but the days of a black guard unit raping half the army and then leaving for home with minimal casualties are over. on the other hand, our steg's got weaker aswell since their impact hits and attacks don't remove models from the front rank maning that a unit has a fai chance of getting some CR by killing the skinks on top so overall i think saurus actually got better because of their ability to take some punishment and still dish a lot of attacks at S4. i advise you still buy those spears that are basically free, ofcourse you can't chose what to use now but i'd rather have the spears
Stegs however got massively buffed by Thunderstomp and epic Life magic. Sure they will never break an enemy unit now (with Steadfast and Step Up attacks going at skinks) but the pure attrition you can lay down with those Stegs is staggering. Eventually you will stomp them down to 9 models left and poof. You are correct that Saurus got worse. But everything else got twice as good.
Well, those units are steadfast until they get down to 4 models, but yes, you are correct otherwise. Stegadons are great for wars of attrition.