7th Ed. Terradons?

Discussion in 'Lizardmen Tactics' started by Revered_Guardian, Jun 27, 2009.

  1. Revered_Guardian
    Troglodon

    Revered_Guardian New Member

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    Ok, I want this to be a database of everything there flying menaces can do, and advice on how to use them....

    not ending up dead like this

    Kentucky fried chicken :chicken:
     
  2. Cragspyder
    Skink

    Cragspyder New Member

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    Terradons (or 'Terribledons' as I like to call 'em) improved a lot in some ways and got a lot worse at others.

    They are much better at being some sort of crazy Lizardman Fast Cavalry/Skirmisher hybrid and much worse at killing war machine or other support units in close combat.

    Your first priority is to get your rocks off (lol) on a fragile enemy unit before your Terradons are killed by someone looking at them the wrong way (Burning Gaze, perhaps?). To do this, their Move Through Woods ability comes in quite handy as they are so fragile (2 wounds at T3, 6+ save) so the soft cover and protection from LOS weaponry comes in handy (watch out for Lore of Life or Wood Elves...). I would hit Fast Cavalry, Skirmishers or enemy missile troops if possible, don't bother hitting a war machine with it unless you have a big unit or are feeling lucky, besides war machine crews (dwarf excepted as usual) are pretty much the only things that Terradons can beat in CC nowadays, so you can leave them a viable target to charge next turn.

    In regards to their new Feigned Flight abilities, I don't think much of it as 1) they are a Skirmisher so the enemy unit is free to 'tactically wheel' and go whichever direction he pleases when you declare your flee reaction and 2) They have LD 6 cold-blooded so they sometimes have trouble rallying and they can't even buy a musician to help them with that. So in practice I don't find it too useful.

    They can still charge and kill Bolt Throwers (assuming the Bolt Throwers don't take em down first), and non-Dwarf artillery pretty well, but try not to use em in combat as they give up free CR pretty easy and they don't deal nearly as much damage as they used too.
     
  3. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    One recent BRB FAQ has clarified what happens when skirmishers flee a charge. When charging skirmishers, the chargers must attempt to charge the closest model, not whichever they choose. This helps skirmishers and those who move similarly to be better at directing enemy chargers.
     
  4. Barotok
    Terradon

    Barotok New Member

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    It's not fried any more, haven't you seen the recent adds? It's grilled!

    As far as usage of terradons, I think there are people who will have more experience with the unit than I have. In truth, I've used them in small games only. I did take a moment to compare the 6th edition terradons to the 7th edition ones offering a slight tactical analysis on the changes.

    Points Cost: -5points
    Terradons are now down 5 points/model from the previous version of the book. Looks to me like GW wanted to adjust the points value down considering the following changes. A solid move, from my point of view.

    Damage/Round (CC): 3ST4 atks down to 1ST4 + 1 ST3 atk
    This is a significant nerf which eliminates a role for the terradons that I used them for from time to time; Helping break a unit of infantry with extra CR via wounds. Ultimately it has limited affect on the primary roles that this unit is frequently used for, making it slightly harder to break a war machine crew, but does give the enemy the assurance that more often than not, Terradons will not be charging them in the flank or rear. At this point it doesn't appear that the SCR generated from the doubled unit strength makes up for the loss of DPR (although I haven't actually calculated the math).

    Hit & Run: eliminated
    The Hit & Run rule is no more in the new book having a few interesting effects on Terradons, but once again not seriously affecting their primary role on the battle field. While eliminating an escape route for terradons in the above mentioned scenario (charging infantry), this rule seemed to bog down the game for enemy players unfamiliar with it. Replacing this rule with the Flying Cavalry rule from the rule book was a solid move. Now when Terradons flee, they can be persued which slightly lowers their survivability despite their high 3d6 flee roll.

    Armor Save: No Change
    While technically there was a change, the over all effect is the same. Instead of a special rule for being 'mounted' laid out in the 6th edition rules, Terradons recieve the Flying Cavalry rule from the BRB allowing for the same save. The means by which the save is acquired is now more standardized and easier to understand. Slightly less gameplay bogging?

    Flying Cavalry: from BRB added
    Giving this rule to Terradons standardizes them as a unit across the warhammer would and allows for predictable results and easier explaination to enemy players. The terradons now use this rule to pick up their armor save along with their 'fast cavalry' like reform after fleeing (the poor mans "Hit & Run"). The biggest change here is of sigificant advantage to the LM player allowing this unit to run interference behind enemy lines as units break from combat via the "Cross Fire" rule. Flying Cavalry, essentially doubles the unit strength of the unit bringing your average unit of Terradons up to US6, making them capable of parking behind units that may break and cleaning up the table. Another very handy battlefield role. Perhaps this is the expected advantage from trading out the S4 atks, forcing the terradons into a more 'flyer' like role.

    New Rule: Drop Rocks
    Once per game the terradons may drop their rocks inflicting D3 St4 hits on a target they have flown over. Unless my math serves me incorrectely, this averages 2x St4 hits per game from a single terradon, multiplied by the number of active terradons in the unit. So far, I've killed chariots and various other infantry targets with this new rule, although I suppose hitting warmachines would be equally as effective (although you run the risk of hittin g the actual machine since the hits would be distributed as normal shooting). Ultimately, this is a nice perk, but not a good enough reason to add this unit to your list, on its own. Having a unit of 3 Terradons, drop 3 rocks total, and not wounding with any, is a possibilty. Although you could be looking @ 6 wounds as well.

    New Rule: Aborreal Predators
    Tactically this rule doesn't really increase the combat value of the unit overall, but does give them yet another potential role on the battlefield. Terradons, now hiding in the woods can, chase units through woods, charge units in woods (provided they have LOS) and of course charge out of the woods (LOS again). This handy trick makes sense from a rules perspective and reflects what GW's vision of Terradons on the battlefield seems to be. It's advantage is difficult to measure considering that it is a situational tactic and you're not guarunteed forested areas where you want to place your terradons.

    Leadership: +1
    At first glance, I missed this change. After carefull examination and comparison of my two books, I was pleasantly surprised to find that skinks, brave enough to master the art of flying on a large 'lizard of prey' do in fact have better leadership. After coming across a lizardmen leadership post on another forums by Sammy the squib (thank you by the way). This gives Terradons a nearly 16% increased likelyhood of passing psychology tests. If there was a way for your to port the math from that post to a thread here Sammy, that would be excellent. Perhaps, you already have and I am unable to find it?

    Skink Hero Mounts: A Skink Chief may now ride a terradon as a mount
    Now you can tie one of your hero choices up in a unit that isn't good at getting into CC! Perhaps a T3 character mounted on a Terradon, carrying Staff of the Lost Sun isn't so bad, but it will insure that enemy units may be focusing on bringing an end to your high flying T3 hero. Perhaps Tiktaq'To has some uses, but I ultimatley dont' think I would field a skink chief this way, despite their buffs they picked up in 7th.


    Perhaps I missed something at which I'll add to this post, upon request. As far as usage, their usage has changed significantly since the last incantation of the rules, but ultimately remains the same general idea. Just don't plan on using them in CC as like the above post says, they give up more CR than they provide. That in my mind is a significant nerf and I'll be using my leathery winged friends in less demanding roles for future games.
     
  5. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    Just looked this up, to be more exact. When charging skrimishers, the chargers must attempt to contact the closest visible skirmisher.

    Since Terradons can fly, there is potential to be very specific about which direction you want the chargers to go. Just remember that you determine the line of the charge by where you place the closest visible model.
     
  6. Barotok
    Terradon

    Barotok New Member

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    This alone makes skinks an invaluable tool to steer an enemy unit out of harms way and generally help to break apart a battle line. I'm not sure how much I'd use my 30pt/model terradons for these types of maneuvers, the option is still there, since their flee roll is much higher.
     
  7. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    Once march blocked, the skirmishers can only move 6 inches to get into a good position. Terradons can swing into position wherever they are needed, which also makes the whole situation less predictable for the opponent.

    Your opponent might not be counting on a bait and flee because of how you've deployed and moved your terradons the first couple turns... then you swoop in a block one of his key charges at the last minute, and his plan goes to hell. With skirmishers, it is pretty obvious what you are about to do with them, only moving 6 inches and lacking the ability to suddenly "re-deploy".
     
  8. Revered_Guardian
    Troglodon

    Revered_Guardian New Member

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    How do you guys think in my 2k army that a unit of 3 terradons will work with 6 cham skinks?
     
  9. Barotok
    Terradon

    Barotok New Member

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    I've never tried this particular combination, but I'd say that its definitely viable. The chameleons are going to be close to the terradons in the first turn, because of their deployement rules, putting them into position to march block and shoot at the enemy. I can't see using my expensive skinks to bait charge primarily because my flee roles have a tendancy to ruin my luck, but I think these units could possibly wreak some march blocking havoc. Above and beyond that, I don't see them as a particularly lethal combination, but do see how they would end up working together. Perhaps someone else can offer some insight into this?

    I am interested in finding out how a unit does when beefed out with a skink cheif in the unit. It's questionable to me as to weather or not it would be worth the points, or if I would just be added a bullet magnet to a unit that I already don't particularly want shot at.
     
  10. Cragspyder
    Skink

    Cragspyder New Member

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    Though this does help sometimes, the crux of the issue with this is that Skirmishers must align to the charging model, whereas if a rank-and-file unit is charged (normal Fast Cavalry are still rank-and-file cavalry despite having only one rank), the charger must align to the enemy unit.

    Thus if you are blocking the arc of a unit of Chaos Knights with the edge of 1 Terradon, 1 inch away, all the Chaos Knights have to do is declare a charge against the unit you are trying to divert them from, instead of declaring a charge directly at the Terradons. The Chaos Knights then make a small wheel towards their target unit, impacting the Terradons on during the wheel, so when the Terradons declare their flee reaction (as per the Redirecting Charges rules), they end up fleeing straight through the unit you were trying to divert from in the first place. The Chaos Knights can then complete their charge move in their intended direction.

    If it was normal Fast Cavalry attempting the same thing, as soon as the Knights make their wheel and touch the Fast Cavalry they have to align in that direction, since they are rank-and-file, so they can then be lead off in another direction when the Fast Cavalry declare their flee reaction.

    At least this is my impression of the rules. When you encounter a redirecting charges situation, and the new target of the charge declares a flee reaction, you move the fleeing unit in the direction it would have fled in if it had decided to hold and then broken in the following CC phase. So even though the units never actually get into combat, the unit that declared a flee reaction flees as if the charger and chargee actually did align for close combat.

    I could be wrong of course, I am wrong often!

    Plus this would be a lot easier to describe with a diagram, but I am at work at the moment so I don't have access to MS Paint!
     
  11. Barotok
    Terradon

    Barotok New Member

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    Part of the problem with the scenario as you describe it, is that the if the knights can charge the unit whilst avoiding the terradons, they must do so. If they declare a charge against another target that they can see, they must wheel to miss the other units. You do not count as incidentally charging any unit you might end up bumping into on the way to your target hoping that each flees in order to allow you to get there. You have to use your one wheel to either maneuver around any intervening targets and complete the charge bringing as many models into contact as possible, or you fail the charge due to lack of distance or you fail the charge due to needing a 2nd wheel to get there. You are only allowed to redirect if your original target elects to flee.

    It sounds like in this case the knights would have to use their wheel to avoid the terradons instead of just bumping into them.


    In your crux, you are correct in saying that the skirmishers align to the charging unit, but only after the charging unit is brought into b2b contact. Carefull placement of your skirmishers should warrant a unit turning to the direction that you want if placed correctly. Only after the initial contact with the closes model is made, will the skirmishing unit rank up against the chargers.

    Perhaps my interpretation of the rules is skewed. I am referencing BRB pg66 for this conclusion, which it's descriptions are not 100% clear. Perhaps there is clarification elsewhere?
     
  12. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    Skirmishers only rank up when in b2b contact, correct. Also correct that chargers must be able to contact their declared target wheeling only once. Only if the initial target flees and changes the direction of the chargers can they declare an incidental charge on an intervening unit.

    It is easy enough to place one of your terradons in a spot that would cause the knights to be forced to wheel twice in order to contact their intended target, which means the charge can't be declared.

    From GW's 2008 FAQ for 7th edition...
    "First, the closest visible skirmisher flees directly away from the centre of the charging unit by the distance rolled. Then, every other fleeing skirmisher is moved by the same distance along the same (parallel) direction as the first, trying to keep the skirmishing unit as much as possible in the same formation"

    So applying this to our terradon friends, there is no limit to the amount of fun that can be had. You could essentially land your terradon so that half of its base obstructs the wheeling of the unit. The center of the unit of knights to the center of the terradon they can see would make the terradons fly close to perpendicularly compared to the facing of the knights. To catch the terradons, the knights would have to complete a sizable wheeling maneuver, then catch up with your 3d6. This also takes them in a totally useless direction, while your terradons are free to move and shoot should they rally the following turn.
     
  13. Barotok
    Terradon

    Barotok New Member

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    Thanks for putting it more eloquently than I ever could. To clairify one more thing thouhg.

    Because of the 'Feigned Flight' rule (BRB 70), Terradons will automatically rally from a flee move against chargers.

    I usually call this the poor-man's-hit-and-run.
     
  14. Aranigej
    Temple Guard

    Aranigej Member

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    Can't agree with you on this.

    In the rulebook it states, and I quote:

     
  15. snowywlf
    Cold One

    snowywlf New Member

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    I am glad someone brought this up, as I felt rather uneasy about this rule.

    I read that statement as 2 conditions with 1 bonus. IE - IF you choose to flee, and IF you rally on the next turn, THEN you may move as normal.

    It seems most people read this rule as 1 conditional with 2 bonuses. IE - IF you choose to flee, THEN you rally next turn and THEN you may move as normal.

    By the syntax I have to assume it is the former. Maybe this has been cleared up previously though? Really unsure about this... because the skill is pure crap the way I read it and I really hope it is the way most people read it. ;)
     
  16. Barotok
    Terradon

    Barotok New Member

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    After reviewing the syntax on my lunch, Aranigej is correct. As you can see it is easily misinterpreted though.

    A rally check is necessary in order for the terradons to continue movement for the turn that they rally.
     
  17. strewart
    OldBlood

    strewart Well-Known Member

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    Yeah you need to choose to flee, and successfully rally then you can move as normal. I still think it is a cool rule, they can essentially flee then next turn be 20" away! Not much else can do that.
     
  18. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    It would be pretty darn powerful if you could auto-rally, and I had heard that somewhere and had to look it up myself. But I got the impression that you still have to pass a normal rally test.
     
  19. Barotok
    Terradon

    Barotok New Member

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    I'll take the blame for that Caneg, I think I misread that section of the rules four times or so, before getting corrected, looking it up and showing up 'red faced' at the computer to type a reply.
     
  20. Azactoth
    Saurus

    Azactoth New Member

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    If any unit declare charge a unit and it cant reach that unit because of any obstacle in the way (including another enemy unit) , it cant charge the 2n unit and stop at 1" from the 2nd unit...

    Example,
    charge.jpg

    If "Enemy" unit declares charge to "unit 1", It don't(can't) move and failed charge...
     

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