Tutorial Troglodon: This is why its great

[Mr Phat]

Okay Guys, I know the forum is filled with threads on the subject of how dissapointing the troglodon is, but I dont think this has been covered properly sinces its all "waaah its not what I thought"

Instead, lets look at what it IS and what our new book brings.

This is what I find have relevans to the Troglodon

OUR NEW BOOK
- The slann got more expensive, so now we cant make our dual-slann the way we used to do.
- Our units got Predatory Fighter

TROGLODON - 100 Skaven Slaves

- Goes under Rare pts.
- One of two units that have Arcane Vassal
- Has a one time buffer roar that makes PF get double as effective.
- Have a shooting attack
- Can be upgraded to channel a dice.
- He is a LARGE TARGET

now....this guy REEKS of "Hey, im a support unit"
answer me this: why do people keep comparing this to a Carnosaur or a Stegadon?!

The Troglodon is a victim, just like the Razordon was/is to the Salamander
People mistakenly judge them from the perspective that they fill the same role as other units when they clearly strife to do different things.



Its not a Carnosaur, the Carnosaur is a Carnosaur......(repeat this line with Stegadons and Sallies)

The Trog is in fact something else..and try to follow me here with open minds, cause what im about to say is close to dividing by zero:


The Troglodon is our new dual Slann.

There, I said it.

We cant afford 2 Slanns anymore, which means we cant cover the same area of magical airspace, so this is what they gave us:

- The Slann can now have 8 Spells through High magic or Signature spells (thats worth of two lvl4 casters)
- The Troglodon can channel and be used to cast these spells.

Place the Troglodon anywhere within 24'' and your Slann Solo can now use this Chewbaca-saur to cast spells through.
High Magic spells are all Direct Damage, Magic Missiles or buffs which has all range of 18'', which means that over half the spells can be cast through your Trog and the rest can cover your army pretty well to begin with. Also, most of the useful Sign. Spells that can be picked up easy and used accordingly.

uh...sorry..did I get that right?
Does this mean that a Slann and a Trog actually works just like our past Dual Slann build??! from using RARE points? ..sounds too good to be true


it is....

CONS
- Where you HAD two Slanns with 4 Spells each (minimum) in 7th, you now have to cast and cycle out your 8 high magic to roll on the Lores to get them, which IS something that needs mastering.
- The Trog cant cast spells (surprise), which means a fail cast from the Slann ends the phase (so much more reason for you to calculate dice roles properly!)

..with that said..


The Trog may provide a Channel Dice, as a Slann would
The Trog should be behind your lines, as a Slann would

unlike a Slann

This guy CAN actually fight a little.
Has a ranged attack
has a massive NO POWER DICE NEEDED USTOPPABLE roar that makes your army go rampage for a round.
..furthermore, if you DO lose him, its no way near as tragic as it would be for a fully kited Slann.

He isnt a carnosaur...he is a Slann assistant and Saurus Supporter.
And I actually think I will be picking one of these up after all.

 

[Didymus]

That "massive" roar is so below average that it can't even be relied on. You can cast through a skink too, for fewer points (although they are from the hero section) and I doubt the Trog would live very long in combat. THere are much better things to invest your rare points into.

 

[rexti]

While I agree with many of your arguments, and the stats allow it to flank charge and fight "smaller" units while killing a few knights with the ranged attack now and then, the big problem remains:

It takes away point from Stegadons and Sallies!

If it was a special choise, I would rate it higher, but right now, there are just some choises in the rare slot that I would have to leave at home for the sake of bringing it. If you aren't interested in stegadons and only want 3 sallies in your army, i guess you can go crazy, but in the kind of armies which i usually field (relatively combat-heavy), there just isn't room for boosting the cost of my slann by another chunk of points. And why not just get a skink priest with an Eotg for a "few" points more instead?

 

[Animaux]

i agree he makes a good slann suporter but for the 215 points

i can get 2 prests at lvl 1 one witha cube the other with a dispel scroll (either of these could easily be a cloack of feathers )

i get 2 channels and 2 different areas of the board covered for slans spells i get 2 winsans the magic phase does not end with a bad roll.

and on the roar its great but at 2500k points the normal list i play i have 1 unit of saurs a stegadon and some templeguard that can benift from it assuming they all in combat on my turn and all with in 12" this is not going to happen alot assuming the temple guard get in and one other unit at the same time it may be worth it but it limits my arcane vessal range because it has to be tied to the temple uard

i like the model and wish it compared to other stuff and in any other army it may well be great but at rare we have 2 amaxzing choices the ancient stegadon and salamanders, so i ask you would you want this guy or 3 salamders and or an anicent steg(who is possibly our best unit)

for me its not that the trog is bad its not if used corretly i think its very effectiveits just we have better choices, if it was a special choice i actually think it would see play

and please note this not theory for me i have tested the trog in 3 battles

 

[Slanputin]

The Troglodon is our new dual Slann.

When I read this my music suddenly upped the tempo and flooded my ears with bass, I feel this is prophetic in some way?

I agree to an extent with what you said, and agree with your tactical ideals for the Trog' (and it's comparison to the poor Razordon). I'm still somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of a big Monster playing support, however that's more of a conceptual conflict than anything else.

I feel the roar is bit too much of a wet fart to make a truly compelling argument. Plus, I still feel 200 pts is still too much for Troggy too, judging it on its own grounds: so I have to spend a tonne of points on a Slann and a Troglodon to make it acheive its potential? No likey.

However, I like the model and will most likely get one in the future at some point anyway; apparently I go for looks over anything else.

 

[Mr Phat]

and I doubt the Trog would live very long in combat.

Its not supposed to go to combat. It Can.

THere are much better things to invest your rare points into.

to define "better" you first need to define what you need.
If I need muscle...yes..ill take a steg.
If I need ranged...yes, ill take a sally


if need magic coverage, but choose to get my muscle from my Hero slot by taking Cowboys and a Carno...ill take the Trog

 

[Animaux]

if need magic coverage, but choose to get my muscle from my Hero slot by taking Cowboys and a Carno...ill take the Trog

i dislike this idea because assuming our party slann has the chanelling staff we realistaclly need at least 1 skink preist to have a dispel scroll for that odd hard to dispel moster spell pit of shades etc where taking the risk of rolling dice could lose us the game.

although a slann and a carnosaur doe sound fun

 

[Mr Phat]

if need magic coverage, but choose to get my muscle from my Hero slot by taking Cowboys and a Carno...ill take the Trog

i dislike this idea because assuming our party slann has the chanelling staff we realistaclly need at least 1 skink preist to have a dispel scroll for that odd hard to dispel moster spell pit of shades etc where taking the risk of rolling dice could lose us the game.

although a slann and a carnosaur doe sound fun

Cant say anything, I agree.
So...take out a Cowboy. Done.

First game in 8th (yesterday) I used Slann and Carno...the poor thing didnt get a single bite because the Scar vet got too caught up in his Predatory fighting and actually killed the two units they came across ^^

 

[Leokill27]

I can really follow your thought process here and get behind what you are saying.

I dont think the Troglodon is, in so bland a term, a second Slann replacement. Certainly the Trog has a place in most lists above 1500. With the 200 point price tag a lot of people would much rather have a second stegadon, or even some kroxigor thrown into the mess to add a little more backbone to an army, not that the trogdolon isnt tough, its just niche.

If you want to support your slann with magic, why not bring a Skink priest? With the opening of Beasts lore to them they become a real threat with the changes to Saurus Heros and Lords.

Granted, the trogdolon brings some very useful tools to the battlefield. Predatory fighter on a 1/3 chance would certainly mean a lot in an important combat, but would it be able to deliver that reliably? I think the trogdolon is a supoorting unit, much in the same way terradons and to an extent Camo skinks are. Using your terradons to harrass units and bringing sallies up is a favourite tactic of mine, and Charging Camo skinks is almost so silly that it works on the right target.

The trogdolon should work in an army in a similar way, creating a situation with its fast mobility and supporting by slann attacks sourced from its own rider, that you can then have Saurus follow up behind or alongside, let out that roar and destroy what you hit. Its seems like tip-of-the-spear type unit to me, that is supportive in a way that if you have a tough nut to crack, this will create the oppertunity needed.

Also a f*****g sweet model!

 

[IronJaw]

I think the point is that the unit isn't horrible, like most people seem to imply.

Sure there are other options, but if I go magic heavy, I just might want a Trolglodon.

If I wanted something else, I would pick something else. That, what I think, is what people are missing.

 

[stormtruperTK41]

The reason I know in my heart of hearts that the Trog is not very useful is because I want SO BADLY to like it but just cannot find a reason why. It just dies entirely to easy. Once his roar is used then you just have this 215pt model, sucking points out of rare...where there could be another eotg of unit of sallies or razors...and all it does is rarely hit with one shot that only does one hit or potentially channel a dice. If this thing was priced like the bastiladon (a proper support unit) and the devining rod was included, I would probably take it every time....but its not sooooooo yea

 

[Spiney Norman]

The reason I know in my heart of hearts that the Trog is not very useful is because I want SO BADLY to like it but just cannot find a reason why. It just dies entirely to easy. Once his roar is used then you just have this 215pt model, sucking points out of rare...where there could be another eotg of unit of sallies or razors...and all it does is rarely hit with one shot that only does one hit or potentially channel a dice. If this thing was priced like the bastiladon (a proper support unit) and the devining rod was included, I would probably take it every time....but its not sooooooo yea

The problem is his profile is actually worse than a Bastiladon and his buffs are not as good, and he costs more. I understand that the model is beautiful and when I have some spare cash I will buy another carno box and make one, but unless they FAQ pred fighter so that 2nd/3rd/4th ranks can make extra attacks in this case the roar isn't even worth very much and the trog is really just a big 200pt skink priest that can't cast magic, and can't join units.

Even in a really Saurus heavy list you're unlikely to generate more than a handful of extra hits with the Troglodon's roar.

 

[Mr Phat]

I think the point is that the unit isn't horrible, like most people seem to imply.

Sure there are other options, but if I go magic heavy, I just might want a Trolglodon.

If I wanted something else, I would pick something else. That, what I think, is what people are missing.

You got it mate.

 

[OmegaHavoc]

The only thing the bastiladon has going for it that's better than the trog statwise is its armor save. That's not even really a stat. The trog has higher movement, strength and wounds than a bastiladon.

In no way am I saying that a trog is better, just pointing out stat differences favor the trog.

If only the trog was 150pts too.

 

[Mr Phat]

The only thing the bastiladon has going for it that's better than the trog statwise is its armor save. That's not even really a stat. The trog has higher movement, strength and wounds than a bastiladon.

In no way am I saying that a trog is better, just pointing out stat differences favor the trog.

If only the Trog was 150pts too.

"only" that armour granted my Bastiladon victory towards High Elven cavalry with lances....it matters.

I really wish the Troq was cheaper too. That OR had the ability to give the oracle an Arcane item...the fluff DO state that he searches for lost Artifacts...if he could be the scroll caddy he would be an auto include for me.




Btw...other reasons to pick a Trog over a skink priest is:

- if you want the slann to use the dice anyway...he can get the same amount of Beast spells as a Skink priest easy...just that he is lvl 4
- A Trog has plenty wounds to suffer to take from if the Slann miscasts..a Skink dont.

besides..I think (THINK) that it is easier to get it closer to enemies without dying compared to a skink..unless you put it inside a skink bunker...but for it to matter you are already close to the Trog's points...and then I'd rather have the stomps.

and getting close means Spirit Leech (direct damage).

 

[Andrinor]

I agree with most of what has been said here. The Trog certainly isn't supposed to be a killy monster - we should have probably been clued into that when a skink was riding it.

It isn't too expensive but it really needs a little something else or to be fewer points for it to regularly see the table.

I'll certainly be building one and I will run one in my larger (2500 - 3000) magic heavy lists. I really wish the shooting attack was better. If it was small template, placed with 18" and scatter D6" or D6 shots per turn with the current profile then the model would be fixed for me and a much more enticing option, but alas, it isn't so.

 

[Drmooreflava]

The title of the thread says "This is why its great"

I'm not convinced that the trog is great at all.

At best, he is mediocre.

For the cost of the kit alone, I'd rather have a carnosaur. It looks much more bad-ass than the blind troglodon.
How could one say, "Oh, I got the giant, $85 (tax not included) monster kit and built a support unit out of it"?

anyway, personal aesthetic and economic preferences aside.

I haven't heard one claim that makes me consider the troglodon "great". The trog is situational. I don't pay $85 and 107.5 slaves for situational.

I feel there are more reliable choices in the book. And I know, you are all grumpy about the trog getting compared to stegs, carnosaurs and eotg etc, but that is the reality of the situation:
The trog is a monster kit shared by the carnosaur, they will always be compared.
The trog is in the rare section, therefore it will be compared to the ancient steg because they are competing for points.
The trog is relatively the same points as a regular steg, hence further comparisons.
The trog, like the 2 bastilidon variants, is a support monster which generates the comparisons between the 3.
The trog also competes for rare points with salamanders, and salamanders are excellent.

The troglodon has his place and a few unique rules that separate him from his competitors. In turn, his competitors have unique rules and separate themselves from each other. I think most agree that the other options in our book are more reliable, fulfill roles that would otherwise not be met, and are more effective for their points.

TL;DR

"The troglodon seems to have carved out a little role that the other monsters/rares don't fill; however, he doesn't fulfill that role exceptionally well. Here is the problem, our other choices fulfill their roles to an excellence. The troglodon is no "Great".

 

[rothgar13]

+1 to the post above me. Well said.

 

[Mr Phat]

I feel there are more reliable choices in the book.

for doing what?

The trog is a monster kit shared by the carnosaur, they will always be compared.

Just like the Salamander / Razordon ...which was irrational...different roles and purposes.

The trog is in the rare section, therefore it will be compared to the ancient steg because they are competing for points.

would you compare Templeguards to Terradons because they are both in special? ..different roles and purposes.

The trog is relatively the same points as a regular steg, hence further comparisons.

So are Templeguard and Chameleons ...also weird to comparise wouldnt you think? ..different roles and purposes.

The trog, like the 2 bastilidon variants, is a support monster which generates the comparisons between the 3.

True...but one is slighty tanky and can use PD, one is slightly fighty and can generate PD

again: two different things that should be considered apart in reflection of what you NEED

once again: ..different roles and purposes.

The trog also competes for rare points with salamanders, and salamanders are excellent.

True, but are they what you need to fit the rest of your army?
..different roles and purposes.

I think most agree that the other options in our book are more reliable, fulfill roles that would otherwise not be met, and are more effective for their points.

Reliable? in doing WHAT? you need to define WHAT you need to be done and then find a unit to fill that role.

Do you just pick your units because "they are good" ?
and not because you have a strategy / playstyle that needs certain roles in the army to be filled?

....sorry if I come across agitated, but its like you read the whole thing, forgot about the point and then responded.

 

[Didymus]

The title of the thread says "This is why its great"
"The troglodon seems to have carved out a little role that the other monsters/rares don't fill; however, he doesn't fulfill that role exceptionally well. Here is the problem, our other choices fulfill their roles to an excellence. The troglodon is no "Great".

Perfect summary, QFT.