8th Ed. War machine LOS and pivoting

[Smexygor]

I play dwarves a lot, but they are new, and none of us have rules for war machines down yet. I frequently flank with chameleons or fly over and behind with terradons, but they just 180 degrees and grapeshot me.

Is that how they work, or do they have a facing and LOS that would stop them from blowing my units away before I can ever charge them?

 

[Old Mossy]

nope, that's how they work. It sounds like it comes down more to tactics. One tactic might be to try to keep them behind cover, just within 24". That way, it's highly unlikely they can get shot up if you don't have the first turn, yet you're still within a march and double shoot.

And by the way (and your friend will probably figure this out quickly), if they're wasting their shots on your 90 points of warmachine hunters, and giving up all the juicy targets that are only really available turn 1 and 2, then let him shoot to his heart's content.

 

[Lord Cedric]

In addition, keep in mind of their ranges and how they work.

With cannons they have a 48" range with up to a 10" bounce. If your unit isn't within that bounce range, then you are fine. This is where depth of ranks isn't a good thing where the deeper a unit is, the better chance of getting hit. With the grapshot, it only has a 12" range. So deploying a unit just outside of this range can render this shot useless on his first turn if he goes first. Also, if you are using terrain, use this to your advantage if possible.

Stone throwers have a minimum distance of 12" with a max of 60". So once you can get within its minimum, then your unit should be fine.

If you are just shooting warmachines with poison, then hopefully you'll get your 6's. Remember though that the crew get to use the toughness of the warmachine when determining wounds - which is usually pretty high - so if you get into CC you'll want a decent strength level. Also, no more than 6 models in any unit can attack a warmachine in a single CC phase, even if you have more than 6 in your unit.

- Lord Cedric

 

[Caprasauridae]

If you are just shooting warmachines with poison, then hopefully you'll get your 6's. Remember though that the crew get to use the toughness of the warmachine when determining wounds - which is usually pretty high - so if you get into CC you'll want a decent strength level. Also, no more than 6 models in any unit can attack a warmachine in a single CC phase, even if you have more than 6 in your unit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you only get to use the Warmachine's Toughness against shooting attacks, and close combat would be resolved against the crews T as normal...

 

[Old Mossy]

If you are just shooting warmachines with poison, then hopefully you'll get your 6's. Remember though that the crew get to use the toughness of the warmachine when determining wounds - which is usually pretty high - so if you get into CC you'll want a decent strength level. Also, no more than 6 models in any unit can attack a warmachine in a single CC phase, even if you have more than 6 in your unit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you only get to use the Warmachine's Toughness against shooting attacks, and close combat would be resolved against the crews T as normal...

you're correct

 

[Lord Cedric]

Yes, you and Old Mossy are correct. I was fairly tired from working an 11 hour shift when I wrote that and didn't recheck my post prior to posting. It was actually suppose to be two thoughts that got blended together in one sentence by a cut and paste. Sorry!

I started off saying that the crew gets to use the Toughenss from the Warmachine and *meant* to include for the purpose of shooting attacks and you'll need a high Strength to help penatrate (which was the last part of that sentence). The middle part was the cut & paste part involving CC of which you both are very correct in that the crew uses their own toughness.

Meh.. next time I'll just go to sleep first THEN I'll post rules help.

Sincerely though, thank you both for correcting this. I should have noticed it before I posted.

- May the Wind Always Blow Swiftly At Your Back,
Lord Cedric

 

[mrlowery82]

A little bit of thread-o-mancy but I can't resist. Unless I am off my rocker the rules for grapeshot say they select targets using the normal rules for target selection. That means they need line of sight and forward arc before they can declare you Skinks as a target. And since the pivot comes after the selecting of a target, I would say that the Chamo Skinks are doing the safety dance.

 

[Caprasauridae]

... I don' think that's right. Can't prove you wrong, though, but it doesn't make sense.

 

[Stonecutter]

... I don' think that's right. Can't prove you wrong, though, but it doesn't make sense.

Bottom of page 109 CRB:

,...before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving)

WM can pivot in any direction to shoot at a target without having "moved" and hence have 360 LOS.

 

[mrlowery82]

Bottom of page 109 CRB:

,...before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving)

WM can pivot in any direction to shoot at a target without having "moved" and hence have 360 LOS.[/quote]


Actually that proves my point. You pivot to face your CHOSEN target. You have already chosen your target and since grapeshot uses the normal rules for choosing targets (i.e. forward arc, line of sight, and range) they cannot pivot to face something that is not in their forward arc. So cue that Saftey Dance music.

 

[Stonecutter]

You pivot to face your CHOSEN target. You have already chosen your target and since grapeshot uses the normal rules for choosing targets (i.e. forward arc, line of sight, and range) they cannot pivot to face something that is not in their forward arc. So cue that Saftey Dance music.

Turn Sequence: (page 12 or 178)
1. Movement phase
2. Magic phase
3. Shooting phase
4. Close combat phase

Movement comes before shooting and hence any potential target will be "in arc" for any war machine since it will have turned to face them during the movement phase. This pivoting does not count as movement so the war machine can still fire. Furthermore, under the rules for charging war machines it states that they do not have a base (and hence cannot have a front or flank) and the close combat rules also indicate that a war machine does not have a rear or flank. End of story is that units can be grapeshot if they are within the 12" range.

However, grapeshot is not a big threat to chameleons or even terradons. The rules require that grapeshot fires as normal which means they have to hit. If the unit is 6-12" away:

Chameleons : -1 long range, -1 skirmish, -1 chameleons = 7's to hit for most crews and 6's to hit if the WM has an engineer with BS 4. If the skinks are in cover, they gain additional protection.

Terradons: -1 long range and -1 skirmish and any cover modifiers. Again, 6's needed to hit for most shots or even worse.

At the end of the day, a cannon might kill a skink or wound a terradon with grapeshot. In the interim, steggie and the rest of the army are that much closer to charging in and crushing all who oppose the plan of the old ones!!!

 

[Caprasauridae]

Stonecutter's view is also how I thought it would be. Thought, didn't think how hard it would be to hit Chamo Skinks with a grapeshot, thanks for adding that!

 

[mrlowery82]

Turn Sequence: (page 12 or 178)
1. Movement phase
2. Magic phase
3. Shooting phase
4. Close combat phase

Movement comes before shooting and hence any potential target will be "in arc" for any war machine since it will have turned to face them during the movement phase. This pivoting does not count as movement so the war machine can still fire. Furthermore, under the rules for charging war machines it states that they do not have a base (and hence cannot have a front or flank) and the close combat rules also indicate that a war machine does not have a rear or flank. End of story is that units can be grapeshot if they are within the 12" range.

Once again I have to disagree. The part where it says they pivot without counting as moving is in the "shooting with war machines" section. The part that governs their movement says they follow the rules of movement for lone models(pg. 27). That section says, "although a lone model that pivots on the spot does count as moving for the purposes of shooting and so on" and since war machines are move or fire they can't pivot in the movement phase and fire.

As far as facings, page 5 states, "a model has a forward, flank and rear arc based on the direction that it is facing." War machines do not normally have a base and the "war machines in close combat" does indicate that "a war machine does not have any flanks or a rear for the purposes of combat results." Which would imply that they do have them outside of combat results.

And finally, the prism that I am viewing these rules through is an article by Jervis Johnson on GW's site about easy to miss rules of 8th edition. In the Lone Characters section he says, "Lone Characters: Note that lone characters no longer have a 360 degree arc of sight. All models use the same 90 degree arc of sight now, and can only 'see' in the direction they are facing." Emphasis mine and I will put the link below. Now this is by no means FAQ but this was my starting point when looking at these rules.

Sorry for being so long winded and thanks for bearing with me till the end. Anyhoo, thats how I see it and here is the article link as promised.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=12400021a

 

[Caprasauridae]

I dwelled deeper into this problem and I still think Stonecutter is right. In your turn, you move Chamo Skinks on to the flank of a cannon, outside of its forward arc. This way, at this point, it CANNOT shoot you as it doesn't have you on it's forward arc. But, when the enemy's turn comes, it can pivot (on it's Shooting phase, actually, as this was changed in the latest FAQ errata) to face your Skinks and grapeshoot. The rules say, that war machines are single models, but it also states that they can pivot on place and this doesn't count as moving. So war machines can pivot to face you, so that you are in their forward arc, and then shoot you, as pivoting doesn't count as being moved for them.

Also, no reason for apologies, as you presented your case in a very civilized manner and being thorough only helps in getting your point across.

 

[mrlowery82]

The rules say, that war machines are single models, but it also states that they can pivot on place and this doesn't count as moving. So war machines can pivot to face you, so that you are in their forward arc, and then shoot you, as pivoting doesn't count as being moved for them.

The only issue is have with this is it says the war machine pivots to face its chosen target. You must first choose your target with the war machine and as grapeshot follows the normal rules for choosing targets I think they must be in your forward arc.

1. Select firing unit
2. Select target (using the normal rules for shooting for grapeshot)
3. Pivot to line up the war machine
4. Fire!

That is how I always saw it going. I think of the pivot more as the cannon focusing in on its target. This way it tracks it across the battlefield focusing in on it. I just don't see how the pivot can come before the choosing of the target from the way everything is worded. Oh well, cannons or no cannons they cannot defeat my mighty lizards!!!!!

 

[Smexygor]

I know one dwarf player here who might be glad they are less powerful, one who might be indifferent, and one who will argue it to keep their power because he is sort if WAAC. Thanks for the input guys.

 

[Mallas]

The only issue is have with this is it says the war machine pivots to face its chosen target. You must first choose your target with the war machine and as grapeshot follows the normal rules for choosing targets I think they must be in your forward arc.

Actually, the WM pivots in the movement phase. That is it. It does not need to declare that it is facing a certain target, it selects a target to shoot at in its 90 degree arc in the shooting phase.

 

[Lord Tsunami]

the issue is clearly one of a silly formulation (as usual). strictly RAW the WM does pivot after it has chosen a target and hence can not shoot at anything that is not in its front arc. however, if that was how it was intended there would be very little reason to give WMs access to a "free" pivot, and it could be treated like any unit of archers. The inclusion of the pivot-rule makes it very clear that what they mean is "you can shoot at anything, just pivot the machine to face it".

This is an obvious case where you can not use strict RAW since GWs rules are rarely written carefully enough to withstand such scrutiny of details. if you insist on a true RAW approach in this case, all your friends will call you a dick. If you insist at a tournament, a referee will have to be called, and an educated guess would be that he says "ofc it can pivot and shoot behind it. get back to the game!". As a pure theory it is fairly sound, but i can not see any practical importance to it.

 

[mrlowery82]

Actually, the WM pivots in the movement phase. That is it. It does not need to declare that it is facing a certain target, it selects a target to shoot at in its 90 degree arc in the shooting phase.:

The war machine certainly can pivot in the movement phase. However according to its movement rules, it counts as moving for the purposes of shooting. Since it is a move or fire weapon it then cannot fire.

@Lord Tsunami
Once again, I think the free pivot is so the war machine can track a target across the battlefield. If they weren't given the free pivot they would quickly lose track of targets as they move across the battlefield. As far as them calling me or whomever plays the rules as they are written a dick, that just sounds like sour grapes to me. I could equally call them a dick for trying to create an ability for their war machines where none exists, but I digress.

I think the main problem with this is that war machines used to be able to do this. War machines used to have 360 degree LoS but so did lone characters and skirmishers. They don't have that anymore and war machines do not either. I think this boils down to growing pains from a new edition. Oh well, I think the most important thing is to have fun. At my local store we have house ruled that war machines can pivot before target selection. This just makes for a happier game environment. Sorry to run on so long but I felt like adding my two cents. Cheers everyone.