8th Ed. Warriors of Chaos Core Deep Dive - Tzeentch CW vs. Nurgle CW vs. Khorne CW vs. Chaos Trolls

Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the greatest WoC core choice of them all?

The goal of this tread is to use mathhammer to definitively determine which WoC core unit performs best as a mainline fighting block. A good deal of the WoC core units can be discounted straight away as they either fulfill different roles on the battlefield (i.e. Warhounds, Chaos Chariot, Marauder Horsemen) or are underpowered/over-costed (i.e. Marauders, Forsaken). This leaves us with multiple builds of Chaos Warriors and Chaos Trolls (via Throgg's special rule).

As such, our four contending units are as follows:

• Chaos Warriors - Mark of Tzeentch (MoT), Hand Weapon and Shield (HW&S)
• Chaos Warriors - Mark of Khorne (MoK), Additional Hand Weapons (AHW)
• Chaos Warriors - Mark of Nurgle (MoN), Halberds
• Chaos Trolls

These three Chaos Warrior builds are the ones most commonly cited as being optimal. Great Weapons have been excluded because it is rare for WoC generals to throw away their unit's impressive initiative of 5. The Nurgle build is probably the most popular choice, but I've come across quite a few proponents of the other two builds as well. Then we throw the Chaos Trolls into the mix, who I hypothesize will end up outperforming all three of the Chaos Warrior builds (time will tell).

The central questions of this thread (in terms of close combat) are as follows:

1. Are Chaos Trolls better than Chaos Warriors?
2. Which of the Chaos Warriors builds (Tzeentch, Khorne, Nurgle) is the best?
   
3. Just how good are the Chaos core choices against a wide assortment of enemy units?

Spoiler: Procedural rules utilized

Procedural rules utilized:

• Fear tests will be assumed as being passed
• Unit sizes will be adjusted to create the fairest possible balance in terms of points
• Unit formations will be optimized within the normal/typical range we find them on the battlefield. No unit will be narrower than 5 models wide (3 wide for the Trolls) and no unit will be wider than 10 models wide (6 wide for the Trolls).
• Partial wounds will be carried forward from one round of combat to another
• For the purpose of calculating combat results, partial wounds of 0.49 or lower will be rounded down and 0.5 or higher will be rounded up.
• abilities that are in effect for the first round of combat, but not charge dependent (i.e. hatred, Choppas, etc.) will be incorporated into the calculations for the first round.

Having learnt from the limitations of The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer tournament, the way break tests are handled has been updated for this thread to what I have termed an "accrued system"...

Spoiler: How unit formations are selected/considered

How unit formations are selected/considered:

• the goal is to make things as fair as possible for both sides, so I try to take on the viewpoint as the general of each unit. In a contentious matchup I'll flip back and forth between sides, playing devil's advocate.
• the key aim is to ensure that no one side gets the opportunity to "counter pick" their unit formation (unit width) against the other unit's formation. So for example, if a unit of Chaos Warriors were to be fielded 5-wide, I wouldn't field an opposing unit of Savage Orcs 7-wide if it gave them an unfair advantage (meaning that the Chaos Warriors would be better served going 7-wide themselves, or vice versa).
• when a matchup looks fishy, I'll run alternate scenarios to see if a victory was arrived at simply due to how the unit formations were selected.
• in the case of a Monster, the opposing unit will always be placed in the most advantageous formation, because in game terms, there is nothing the Monster general can do about it
• similarly to the point above, if a unit is completely fixed on a unit formation, regardless of the formation chosen by their opponent, then they are allowed to do so. For example if a unit of Witch Elves is best played as a Horde, regardless of the formation chosen by the opposing unit, then the Witch Elves are fielded as a horde (and the opponent in the best formation to face that horde)
• obviously I can't test every combination of opposing unit formations, but I try my best to make it as fair as possible. I also rely on you guys to give me feedback in the event that you come across something that I had not considered.
• usually, wider formations seem to work best, but there have been rare exceptions. Sometimes, I'll even post these "alternate scenarios" so you can see how events change based on variations in unit formation. For the purposes of this thread topic, only the result from what I think is the fairest representation of the matchup is used (unless there is significant feedback indicating otherwise)

Spoiler: Some limitations of our experimental model

Some limitations of our experimental model:

• models breaking from combat are treated as being caught and destroyed by the pursuers
• certain advantageous rules are not accounted for, such as causing Fear/Terror, movement value, swiftstride, etc.
• certain disadvantageous rules are not accounted for, the negative effects of frenzy, Trolls' stupidity.
• Styles make fights. The types of units within our field of competitors will have a direct effect on how well any one unit fares.
• Different units function better or worse at different point values. A unit may lose against their opponent, but defeat that very same opponent at a different point value.

Some key changes from the way things were done in The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer tournament:

1. New accrued break test system - (see Procedural rules utilized)
2. All units (our 4 contestants and their opposition) will have access to their general's inspiring presence leadership - this is based on feedback from our previous tournament. Forum members felt it was more realistic to grant combatants access to their general's leadership rather than having the contest play out in a vacuum. Leadership from special character lords will not be considered. BSBs will not be included, because that will just further extend combats (and mathematical calculations required).
3. Some charge related bonuses will be granted to the opposition - because this is not a tournament, and instead more of an analysis of the four WoC units, it seems logical to test them against a wider range of threats. As such, opposing chariots or knights armed with lances will be granted the charge in the first round of combat. This will be noted in the matchup calculations.
4. An updated scoring system - (see below)

The new scoring system will now be composed of three parts:
1) Match Points

• this is the same system as previously used in The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer tournament
• 

2) Rank Points

• these points are designed to better contrast and differentiate the performance of our four contestants relative to each other (even in the event that they each achieve the same match result, i.e. loss, victory etc.)
• 

3) Combined Points

• as the name implies, this is the combined score of the Match Points earned plus the Rank Points earned

MATCHUP Calculations

Saurus Warriors (HW&S) - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Skeleton Chariots - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Swordmasters of Hoeth - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Crypt Horrors - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Blood Knights - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Ironguts - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Ironsworn - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

K'daai Fireborn - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Treeman - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Necropolis Knights - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Ironbreakers - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Witch Elves - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Har Ganeth Executioners - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Demigryph Knights - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Savage Orc Big'Uns - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Tzeentch Chaos Warriors - Round Summary

• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Khorne Chaos Warriors - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Nurgle Chaos Warriors - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Chaos Trolls

Chaos Trolls - Round Summary

• versus Tzeentch Chaos Warriors
• versus Khorne Chaos Warriors
• versus Nurgle Chaos Warriors

 

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl : thoughts on the result?

 

If I look at the stats in both fights I think that the extra attacks of the Mark of Khorne Warriors comes with the cost of a higher/lower (not sure how this feat works, Worse might be a better option) Ward save?

So heavier hitter but softer skin

Grrr, !mrahil

 

Definitely a big difference defensively:

• MoK + AHW = 4+ armour save
• MoT + Shield = 3+ armour save AND a 5+ parry/ward (6+ parry save improved to 5+ via the Mark of Tzeentch)

It will be interesting to see how this offense vs. defense showdown unfolds across the different types of matchups. Up next will the Nurgle boys with their S5 and -1 to hit.

 

For a start, all three are very strong against the Saurus Warriors. Even the Khorne Warriors, who are ultimately wiped out, still reduced that horde of 40, almost twice its size, down to a negligible 6 models that can be easily pasted by anything else in the Warriors of Chaos army later. All three do their job well, though the Nurgle boys come out on top by losing little more than half their number - that unit can still cause a lot of trouble later on in the game.

I do wonder how Saurus with Spears would fare - I think the 6+ parry save is pretty negligible against this lot, while an extra 10 attacks could go some way to at least taking a few more Chaos Warriors off the table before the Saurus go down.

Now to look at Chaos Trolls, there are a number of things to consider:

• Weapon Skill - Chaos Trolls have a very average WS of 3, meaning they'll be hitting the Saurus on 4s.
• Strength - Chaos Trolls' Strength 5 is better than what the Tzeentch and Khorne Warriors have to offer, and the same as that of the Nurgle Warriors.
• Regeneration - Chaos Trolls' healthy 4+ Regeneration save is better than the Khorne Warriors' 4+ (reduced to 5+ against Saurus) armour save, probably the same (perhaps slightly worse) than the Nurgle Warriors with the same armour save and a -1 penalty to hit rolls for enemy attacks, and clearly weaker than the Tzeentch Warriors' 5+ Ward combined with the same armour. Of course this will vary against different foes - higher-Strength opponents will cut through more of the Chaos Warriors' armour but will have no extra effect against the Trolls' Regeneration, while Flaming Attacks will go right through the Trolls' Regeneration but will still be dependent on Strength against the Chaos Warriors.
• Initiative: All Trolls have the lowest possible Initiative of 1 I believe, which is the same as that of the Saurus and vastly lower than the Warriors' Initiative of 5. Other enemies will have a good chance of being able to hit the Trolls first, maybe killing off a model or two before they get to fight back, a luxury very few foes get against Chaos Warriors.
• Supporting attacks: The Chaos Trolls, being Monstrous Infantry, get to make three supporting attacks each from eligible ranks, while the Chaos Warriors only get to make one each.
• Numbers of models VS numbers of Attacks and Wounds: Being Infantry, the Chaos Warriors have access to a lot more models in a unit, so each casualty will be less heavily felt than in a unit of Chaos Trolls. However each Chaos Troll model can take twice the damage without dying, and can still put out it's three (or four if equipped with AHW and in the front rank) attacks.

My prediction: Though the Chaos Trolls proved themselves the best overall in the Best Close Combat unit... tourney, my belief is that, against the largest possible pool of different combatants, the Nurgle Warriors will fare the best - they just seem to have the best possible combination of durability, offensive punch, high Initiative and Weapon Skill, and (an extra bonus we won't see here), they don't need babysitting by the General so can romp all over the field without supervision. The Trolls will come second, and then the Tzeentch and Khorne Warriors, with the latter probably last.

 

Interesting. I've always been more of a HW&S Saurus fan myself. The problem with the spears is that the Chaos units chew into that third rank pretty quickly into fight, so the Saurus wouldn't benefit from very many extra attacks after round 1.

That is a good breakdown of their defensive abilities. The one thing that needs to be added though is the number of wounds the Trolls bring to the fight. It all comes down to points cost per wound...

• MoN Halberd CW = 19 points per wound
• MoK AHW CW = 18 points per wound
• MoT HW&S = 17 points per wound
• Chaos Trolls = 11.7 points per wound

That is a massive difference. As such, the Trolls have the wounds to soak up a lot more damage.

That's true. This was a very rare matchup where the trolls got to strike at the same time as their opponent. Usually they'll have to tank the enemies' attack before they have a chance to strike. Trolls are pretty good at this though.

A very vital advantage. Doubly so in horde formation. Monstrous Infantry in Horde formation is scary!

My prediction is pretty close to yours but with one very notable exception. I believe that not only will the Trolls finish in first, but they will do so by a very wide margin. We've already seen them outperform the MoN CW in the The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer tournament. If anything, I think the gap between the two will be even more pronounced this time around, since under the new rubric, the Chaos Trolls can bank on their general's leadership. After them, I see the MoN CW finishing second, the MoT CW finishing third and at the very bottom will be the MoK CW.

 

I tried an alternate formation (5 wide) for the Saurus to see if they could hang onto steadfast longer and fare better. The contest lasts an additional round, but they end up doing less damage to the Trolls overall...

Spoiler: Alternate Saurus formation (5 wide):

 

Well that is a quick one

Grrr, !mrahil

 

Bloodbath!

Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it flows.


Joking aside, the Khorne Chaos Warriors are not faring too well thus far.

 

Looking at the rounds with the Skeleton Chariots I was wondering why both the warriors and the chariots have the small numbers in the wounds column?
This generally means the other party has strike first doesn't it? If so how can both suffer wounds before striking?

Grrr, !mrahil