Hi there fellow Lustrians! This is a bit of a fluff post so if it needs to be moved I apologise, but as it pertains mostly as to what's in the Battletome I thought here would be a good place to start. I was going to post on the "can Lizardmen go bad" thread about why the Seraphon formerly known as Lizardmen were incapable of turning to Chaos. My answer was basically "no", but I struggled to form an argument that amounted to more than "because GW said so". It was at this point I realised I just don't know enough about Seraphon to make that decision. I still beleive that they can't fall to Chaos, but reading the Battletome has left me with questions that either I've missed the answer to, or that simply don't have answers right now. So what ARE Seraphon? Seems pretty straightforwards right? They're reptillian lizard folk from outer space made from magic that exist to fight Chaos. Ok cool, but lets dig deeper. Lizardmen were the first race created by the Old Ones when they came to the World that Was. Through science and magic the Old Ones altered the life forms of the world and created spawning pools that birthed these alien creatures that we came to know and love as Lizardmen. They were living, breathing life forms and although they were born through dubious means they were otherwise a natural, biological beings with a definite culture and society comprised of individuals of varying intellect and ability performing different roles to continue their civilisation and perform the will of their creators. They were genetically programmed to fulfil a certain set of tasks, and their mental programming made their minds resistant to Chaos and their bodies seemed somehow resistant as well (not a unique trait, but a notable one). During the events of the End Times they gathered in their temples and flew off into space. So they survived right? Wong. The Battletome states that of all of the Seraphon, only the Slann survived the aeons adrift in the void. Seraphon are "wrought of star-magic", "remembered" into existence by the Slann through sheer magical might. So what are they, exactly? This makes them somewhat like Chaos Daemons - creatures of pure magic bound to a temprorary physical form. Daemons, however, are fragments of their God's power granted varying degrees of sentience and individuality. Although not really "alive" a Daemon is a definite entity, not merely a construct like an elemental or golem. With Seraphon we don't really know. Are they alive? They seem to be. We're told they have instincts and emotion and they appear to behave like natural living creatures. Previous publications go to great lengths to describe how unnatural Chaos Daemons are - their movement, their form, their aura all make mortals uneasy - even those who don't know what a Daemon is. There's nothing like this about the Seraphon. The closest thing we have to it is that Stormcast can recognise them as Azyr magic because they themselves are also made of Azyr magic. The only thing we really know is that when a Slann dies it's army disappears along with it, so in a way the Slann ARE the "gods" and the Seraphon are it's "Daemons". Somewhere (I can't find where) I remember it saying that the summoned Seraphon have attributes of the Slann that conjure them, or at least attributes that the Slann imprints upon them so this supports the idea that they're Daemons of Slann. The Saurus Guard entry in the Battletome tells us that out of all the Seraphon the Saurus Guard (and Eternity Warden) are linked to a single particular Slann, which implies that other Seraphon are not. This could potentially mean that Slann can perpetuate the existence of another Slann's Seraphon (other than it's Guard). If this is possible, do the Seraphon lose the traits the dead Slann imprinted upon them and gain traits of the new Slann, or do they maintain their old attributes and merely continue to exist under a new leader's power? Does a Slann become more powerful by obtaining his fellows host, or does it become more draining on it and make him weaker overall? Do summoned Seraphon have their own thoughts and memories? This is a hard one to answer I think. It probably depends of whether Seraphon already exist in some immaterial form ("souls" of the Lizardmen perhaps?) and are merely summoned by the Slann, or if the Slann create them based on their memories of what Lizardmen used to be. If they already exist and are just given form by the Slann's magic, then I imagine they would have their own thoughts, memories and emotions but if the Slann CREATE them, then probably not. And if the Slann create Seraphon that are capable of having their own thoughts and memories (Skinks in particular seem pretty autonomous, so this is possible) what happens when that Seraphon is destroyed? Can it be brought back or will the next one summoned to replace it be a completely different entity? The Eternity Warden entry in the Battletome says that they can be conjured back if they're destroyed, so we've got precedence for the resurrection of fallen Seraphon - but is this something that's unique to the Eternity Warden? If it could be done for other Seraphon then why not mention it elsewhere too? The warbeasts (Salamanders, Razordons, Stegs etc) that the Slann summon seem even more like normal living creatures than the Seraphon themselves. Theres even mention of a Slann summoning a bunch of stegadons to stampede some dudes to death and then just leaving them to roam the mortal realms as a herd. Can these Stegs now breed like normal animals? Do they need to eat? Daemons need some kind of link to the Realm of Chaos to maintain themselves outside of it but how do these Stegs continue to exist? Will they vanish when the Slann dies? The thought of that actually makes me a bit sad... I think that will do for now, I found my thoughts difficult to lay out coherantly and have rambled quite a lot. What's your take on our shiny new Lizards? Can you answer any of these conundrums or have any questions of your own? I think this Battletome has left a lot open to interpretation and gives us leeway to do what we like with our army, but I also find the lack of definition in some aspects disappointing.
I would say that the slann know so many stars, they don't have to summon the same one all that often, unless it's just THEE champion the slann relies on. Seeing the beginning and the end of a world, you've met e couple skinks I bet, haha. I like the idea that as daemons, they don't completely die, and are just banished back to the heavens for a while; to reform? supernova and condense back into a sun again? I don't know. Thinking about all these beings floating around in space without form, just a mind, I want to know if they can communicate in any way. I'm super sure the slann can talk back and forth like it's nothing, but what about my beloved skinks, a social creature as they are, they can't be isolated! Maybe skinks are just dark bands of astroids snaking through the void and defying conventional physics. Which brings me to another question (because I'm adding to your list of questions more than I'm answering them at this point), how does a slann himself arrive in the mortal realms? is it through a portal? or some sort of crashing through the atmosphere sort of arrival? I will put my opinion towards their corruptibility. I think, if they were ever resistant to turning to chaos before, it's almost impossible for them to turn now. The anti chaos sentiment is higher than ever, and the slann themselves don't seem to be pulling any punches. Another opinion, slann should definitely have a cross over of summon-able entities, I'm sure they could even link the memory through to another slann and help the entirety of the Seraphon live on forever, until there's one single slann and all of what he has learned from the others, long passed. This means some major cooperation between battles, and if the enormity of space is getting in the way of that, then there's no one better to make it all happen than some slann.
Well, going off what the Battletome tells us, the Slann basically seem to be using astrological magic to kind of remember the Lizardmen into existence, causing them to take the Azyrite form of the Seraphon. From what I gathered, once summoned, the Seraphon remained alive and could accumulate new experiences and memories, functioning much like they did in Lustria as they age into Scar Veterans and Oldbloods, or some old Oldbloods and Scar Veterans just being remembered into existence to skip the whole aging process entirely. However each Seraphon is not unique, and it is possible for Dave the Saurus Warrior to be summoned simultaneously by any number of Slann. In fact, while much of the Battletome lore is intentionally ambiguous, this is one of the few things they outright state, that they're not unique anymore as they're all basically copies with none being the original. The sole exception to this are the Saurus Guard, who are unique to each Slann, with each Slann having access to a single Eternity Warden who is also unique. At least that's my interpretation of it. As I say, there are hints and suggestions about how it works in the Battletome but it's all intentionally ambiguous. Which I like, the Lizards thrive on being mysterious. I don't think it's possible for them to fall to Chaos, though. Not only are they hardwired to Order, but they're practically made out of Anti-Chaos.
I thought I also read that after a Slann dies his army does not just vanishes, but remains till they are all destroyed and because the Slann is no more can't be re-summoned. Also due to the constellation stuff I do believe that at least the higher officers (old bloods, scar vets, star priest etc) are at least ethereal beings captured in one of the constellation stars with all their memories and their "mortal" form being recreated by the Slann in to the mortal realms
This seams to vary on the plan of battle the Slann has. On page 86 Zectoka arrives to battle inside a great comet, smashing the island to pieces in the process. However previously in the book it's mentioned that others simply appear (like the Serphon) or float from the sky in a beam of light. Sorry to shoot you down @Tlac'Natai the Observer . But page 11 states that Slann have a slight falling out on what to do. Thus they "rarely communicate with their kin" It's not impossible but unlikely that they share memories to keep Seraphon alive. Personally I think @Bainbow and @StealthKnightSteg has it about right. In the same battle as before, right at the end on page 88, it reads: "Zectoka's task was done. With a thought, his army returned to the stars as the slann rose into the sky." This seams to imply that the Seraphon have somewhere to return to
I believe so yes. I was just pointing out how I don't think they are created anew each time, they have some kind of persistence.
I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who likes the intentionally ambiguous nature of the new lizardmen. I think it allows for some freedom of interpretation without requiring hard and fast answers that have to be 'the way it is'. For my part, it seems to me that GW are trying to emphasize the similarities between then Slaan and seraphon and the Chaos Gods and daemons. So the Slaan are definite physical and mortal entities that seem to live on magic (Azyr magic in this case). The seraphon are beings created as an extension of the Slaan's will. Sometime after the End Times, during the Age of Myth, the original, mortal lizardmen population that were rescued in the flying temples died off. Maybe old age, maybe they starved who knows. The Slaan survived and the way I've interpreted it is that my Slaan is summoning and giving physical form to the souls of the saurus, skinks, and kroxigor that escaped with him in the flying temple city. So his army is literally the reincarnated (summoned) population of his former temple city. I figure that given thousands, possible tens of thousands, of years living with and knowing his subjects the Slaan should have no trouble using his ultimate mastery of magic to summon the souls of his followers into magically created bodies. At the very least he is summoning a select cadre of individual skinks and saurus he was closest to and simply creating a generalized template for the rest. Perhaps he is even summoning stegadons, carnosaurs, and other dinos that he had a connection to like Lord Mazdamundi and his stegadon Zlaaq. So my army is composed of definite seraphon individuals summoned by my Slaan, Cueyatl (means 'frog' in Nahuatl for you etymologists out there).
The Lizardmen were always meant to be mysterious and ambiguous, but over time we learned basically everything about them. This hard reset is just what they needed to recapture that old mysterious charm. There's just something really amazing about how they're portrayed now. Whenever Chaos is about to win a major victory, they appear out of nowhere and prevent Chaos from earning that achievement. It's all really summed up in their appearance in the Balance of Power. Spoiler: Stuff that happens in the Balance of Power A massive Khorne army is heading to kill Alarielle which would leave Order severely weakened. On route to the battlefield, a single Slann sits blocking their path. After a moment of confusion from the Daemons, an entire Seraphon army materialises around the Slann and they proceed to defeat the Khornate army before they get anywhere near Alarielle. When Alarielle and her Stormcast allies later come across this battlefield to find nothing but an empty war-torn landscape with no traces of who stemmed the Daemonic tide, Alarielle gives a line to the confused Stormcast along the lines of "there are others who fight Chaos. And they are as cold and distant as the stars. We should not expect their aid again. "As cold and distant as the stars." That's the best description of the Seraphon I can think of and they canonically used it in that book. It's brilliant. Its really painting the Seraphon as more of a force of nature than anything heroic. Sure they fight for Order, but they're uncaring and unfeeling. They fight only for Order and they don't care who they need to kill or abandon in order to keep Order afloat. While the Free People and the Stormcast are legitimately heroic, the Seraphon are far more mechanical. "We should not expect their aid again." The Seraphon are, as I said, not heroes. They're under no obligation to save people. They could easily become a Deus Ex Machina if they wanted to but they won't because they just don't care about people enough to always swoop in and save the day. They'll save your life only if you're going to one day play a major part in destroying Chaos and for no other reason than that. If you've got monsters and daemons looming over you, you better pray that you have some great destiny otherwise the Seraphon aren't going to lift a finger for you. And I love that.
I really love that quote from Alarielle, it really does sum up the Seraphon perfectly and matches some of the behaviour we've seen from them in the battletome. Like the Fortress of Embers battle: drop down, smack up some Chaos, peace out. What about the Stormcast they were aiding? Don't really care, it doesn't matter. The desired outcome was achieved, they played their part and we played ours. I really think Seraphon have moved from a "True Neutral" faction that was entirely pursuing their own agenda for their own reasons (trying to decipher and enact the plan of the Old Ones - eliminating Chaos just happened to be part of that) to a "Neutral Good" faction (we exist to fight evil, but we care nothing for you or your people save what you can offer us to aid us in that fight). I would still like a bit more definition to what Serphon are and how their summoning mechanics work, but I've more or less settled on the nature of our beloved Lizards and have a good idea on how I want my army's narrative to form.
We feel more Lawful Neutral to me. We'll absolutely uphold the natural order of the universe and we'll very coldly mess up anyone who tries to defy it. Somebody does something that defies order but they do it for good moral reasons? Doesn't matter, we're gonna kill you anyway because morality is not what we're about. Order is.
I can see that perspective, but I just get more of a "good" alignment feel from this battletome. Not great reasoning I know, and I'm sure as I re-read it and more material regarding Seraphon becomes available I might change my tune but for now I feel decidedly like a Good race (somewhat a departure from Chaos, Necrons and Dark Eldar from my 40k gaming!). I also think the "lawful" part is debatable - while Seraphon and Lizardmen operated within very strict parameters it was more because they were created to rather than because of a system of laws. It is very "order" though, so I suppose that could count but it always seemed more "neutral" to me on account of being a completely different and alien mindset than the other races. I think the laws and rituals of the Lizardmen came about as a result of their already existing societal and behavioural mannerisms (that wording is a bit shit, sorry if it sounds pompous or nonsensical) rather than the other way round. I got interrupted by work and totally forgot where I was going with the rest of this. Sorry!
I think the only reason why the Seraphon are so aligned with good is because the antithesis of Lawfulness, their thing from my interpretation, is Chaos. And Chaos are the main villains, they're evil. The Seraphon aren't good, they're just fighting this chaotic element that just so happens to be evil. The Good aligned race is definitely the Stormcast, and they fulfill that role really nicely, I think.
You know what, I think I agree. I think "Lawful" is a bad descriptor for Seraphon - Order is their thing. The natural order of the universe, the order of the Great Plan and whatnot. Anything unnatural and not part of that order must be removed, and as you said Chaos is well... chaotic and disordered, ruining the natural order of things. I very much imagine they have a dislike of greenskins as well, but we're yet to see much of them. I suppose you could argue that Law and Order are the same in some fashion, but that's outside of my simple thought processes so I'll leave that to the philosophers among you! Stormcast Eternals are definitely Lawful Good. Their whole aesthetic reminds me very much of the Paladins from the Warcraft universe, except less racist and preachy and more smashy.
This is exactly what I tried to capture in the fluff of my last battle report! (in the view of the Stormcast)
I respect that Law and Order are not defined the same way, but I think in this circumstance, Lawful is the best way to describe our Seraphon. Let's say there are two Order factions in a battle/war, and one side has a future in the fight against chaos... the Slann may decide to step in and help ONE side. One side will think Seraphon are bad, and the other side will think they are good, but Seraphon only think they are doing what's right. Lawful Neutral seems the most accurate for Seraphon. Just as Chaotic neutral doesn't mean bad, lawful neutral doesn't mean good. In reeeaaal life I believe chaos IS the natural balance to the universe, so it's always hard for me to take a black and white stance on Chaos, there is always that grey area. The same grey area exists for lawful neutral.