8th Ed. Why I think Lizardmen are Overpowered

First read the Deployment Special Rules on page 79 of the Rulebook. Units that can use these are incredibly powerful tools in affecting the dynamic of a game. Now read the rules for Skirmishers on page 77. It might also be a good idea to touch up on the Charging rules, particularly pages 16-19.


We have the best scouts in the game. Chameleon Skinks. A minimum sized unit is an excellent tool. They can scout to within 24” of a target, march and lay down 10 poisoned shots. With the death of effective magic missiles and the fact that fast high armour save troops (knights) are uncommon now, the board is ripe for the picking. 12” from the line and with -2 to hit with range the skinks are a pain in the arse to get rid of (particularly when you just shot poisoned half a warhound/fast cav unit and will poison the other half in a Stand and Shoot reaction). Remember that if you pass a LD6 test (68.5% with cold blooded, 99.7% if in range of the Slann BSB) you can march 12” and you always have free reforms and can always shoot (except when rallying). If there is a hole in the opponents line or a flank with nothing protecting it skitter the skinks right in there and just generally be impossible to catch.

Arguably Shades with hand weapons are better. They are a bit dearer at ~142% of the cost with BS5, a repeater crossbow and 2 hand weapons. They can wreck up anything fast enough to get to them with their 10 I5 WS5 attacks with hatred 2 shots, 6+ while moving at 24”, S3, Armour Piercing) [2 WS5 I5 attacks each]. However they don’t get poison so can’t take out a warmachine or a monster like Chameleons can.
Another unit in competition is Gutter Runners. With poison and slings they have the same firepower, only at 18” range. However they would be 150% more expensive. Amusingly, Gutter Runners also get poison with their 2 I5 close combat attacks (cheesy…).


Now lets look at Vanguard. We get the best Vanguards in the game. Terradons. With handy premeasuring you can ensure you will be able to go 20” over a target unit and drop rocks if you get first turn. There is no comparison to this unit in any other army. Dark Riders/Pistoliers/Marauder Horseman can’t fly and don’t get auto hits. Night Runners aren’t skirmishers so can’t march and shoot. Harpies (of the Beastman persuasion) can’t shoot (damn fine redirectors though).


If you take 3 units of 5 Chameleon skinks and 3 units of 3 Terradons you have spent 450 points. They are incredibly slippery and most of the things that can/want to kill them are vulnerable to blow pipes.


If you are against an opponent who is going to hang back and shoot/magic you deploy them in Alpha Strike mode ready to take out some warmachines/drop rocks on a shooting unit. If the enemy the enemy charges out at you to remove your annoying skirmishers you have made your opponent changes his plan (of holding back). If you played it correctly an enemy unit is now at least 12” out of the line. Run your remaining skirmishers into the holes in the line and make him fold in on himself. If the enemy DIDN’T charge out then your skirmishers are probably still around and you can shoot again and again and again etc. Note that in case you don’t get first turn it is prudent to land your Terradons in forests or behind the Chameleon skinks for cover.


In the other case against an opponent who is going to rush at you more thought is required. Do you deploy your scouts/vanguard in the opponents path or do or to the flanks to harass? Either way it is necessary to place your dudes out of charge range/arc (remember you have 24” range with the skinks and 20” with the Terradons). If you deploy at the front you need to move in, shoot once, then die in an advantageous way. Up to your analysis of the situation whether you should angle yourself and stand and shoot (great against frenzy and hatred troops) or flee (great for Terradons and when there is not opportunity for the opponent to redirect the charge). Sometimes you will want to move in REALLY close so the enemy must charge or barely move at all. This is best done to that Deathstar/beasty that you really want to slow down. By forcing it to charge you and affecting its angle of pursuit you can stop it being where it wants to be: in combat. As a rule of thumb, you want the chargee to be 12” (to maximize the chance of a failed charge) or 1” (to force the charge) from the charger.

If you instead choose to deploy on a flank decisions become simple again. Shoot shit and stay alive. If an enemy unit on the flank has hatred or frenzy you could have some fun forcing them to pursue away from their line of advance (alternatively you can do this to units with very very low leadership for example undead. VC players forget that a unit of ghouls within 6” of a hero Vampire may be allowed to march, but they have LD5…).

With the Special Deployment Rules and with such efficient skirmishers (I haven’t even touched on Core Skink Skirmishers!) Lizardmen players should aim to control the early game and the movement phase. Its like a game of chess, except we are always white and get to start our knights and bishops on B4, C5, E4 and F4…

 

Just a little thing, scouts can deploy 12" away form the enemy. Makes them even better.

Samuel

 

I know. But when you can march 12" and shoot 12" anyway it is rarely worthwhile to deploy so close and risk being charged.

 

Wops that was a brain fart from me. You just hold and die in an advantagious way.

EDIT: Well actually stand and shoot has nothing to do with short/long range. If you are more inches away than the opponents movement, you can fire.

 

Nice article mate it almost seems like an 8th ed tactics article for chameleons and terradons. Almost.

 

Yup you can pretty much stand half an inch longer than the enemy movement value and still get stand and shoot, works great as against things slower than M6 you get to shoot at short range.

 

regarding the redirect, bear in mind it wont work against most units as they will just reform after the combat. i guess it keeps them off your main units for another turn still. is there another way to use them?

terradons i find die too easily to shooting, especially as they cant really hide now. much prefer chamo skinks in this regard.

i find a lot of people don't bother taking small units of fast cav etc. these days, so my skinks/terradons are often short of targets once any war machines have been dealt with. perhaps you have a different experience here?


not that i'm saying they're bad, but they aren't the be all and end all of the game.

 

If the enemy has frenzy it works great, if they don't then you still get the charge, very important if you're running stegadons.

 

Yeah that is pretty much what it is. But I was at a loss what to say other than "take them and then do exactly what they say on the tin" cause they are just so damn good.

Only on Frenzy, Hatred and low LD can you do the old style redirection yes. Today it is a delaying tactic and still quite effective. If you have a critical mass of skirmishers up in their face you will gun down all the opponents supporting elements. Remember that the real predators or skirmishers have gone out of fashion; magic missiles, heavy cavalry, enemy fast cavalry and eagles and things (because a lot of people are dumb). If you have 6 redirecting units, you have stop half the opposing army from completing effective charges for maybe 2 turns? Its game breaking.

Yes you have to deploy differently to enemies with adequate shooting. You need to find a mid field forest to hide in, most opposing 'shooting generals' will think "aha, it would be inefficient to shoot them now, so I won't! Also, most armies do not have adequate shooting anyway. In that they might have 2 units of archers in core that you can hide out of LoS from then Drop Rocks on and rout. That is the beauty of having Skirmishing-redirecting-shooting-Specialdeployment units. Their threats are exactly what they are good at killing.

Also, I'd need a rules confirmation on this but Terradons now have back -1 to hit from shooting for being skirmishers?

[EDIT:
page 70 - Flying units consisting of more than 1 model have the Skirmish special rule
page 77 - all shots aimed at skirmishers have an additional -1 to hit penelty (no clause for unit type to replace the old one on unit strength)]

If this happens it makes me happy. What are the enemy supposed to do once they have no supporting elements and my chameleon skinks are marching around their flanks just out of charge arc and rapid firing? Even in 8th, if the enemy have NO flexible elements left early in the game BEFORE they can set up any set pieces, they are gone.

 

well thanks dude i was just wondering:

in how many points you take how many Chameleon Skinks and Terradons?

so for instans at:

500 points
1000 points
1500 points
2000 points
2500 points
and 3000 points

if you could answer this it would be nice =)

 

Well, I don't like to do it because its quite unfair. I'll tell you what I would take in a no composition tournament with a million dollar prize

The thing is, they actually go UP in effectiveness the lower the points value (as long as you are still playing on the same size board). But Chameleon Skinks probably benifit more than the Terradons at lower points.

3000 - I wouldn't know, never played 3000 points.

2500 or 2400 - 3 units of 5 Chameleons and 3 units of 3 Terradons.
2000 - 3 units of 5 Chameleons and 3 units of 3 Terradons.
1500 - 3 units of 5 Chameleons and 3 units of 3 Terradons.
1000 - 3 units of 5 Chameleons and 2? units of 3 Terradons. (at this low, I would consider replacing the Chameleons with Core Skirmishers?)
500 - 2? units of 5 Chameleons and 1? units of 3 Terradons.


UPDATE: One thing I have just been considering... Skink Chief, Terradon, Additional Hand Weapon, Blowpipe. Not sure what to make of him just yet, but he could be damn special. 4 WS4 S4 attacks at I6 means he is pretty handy at killing warmachines, missile units (make sure you are on a flank) units that you didn't quite kill with shooting (those last 3 Fast Cavalry). I will hopefully be trying this guy out soon. Note that he isn't as effecient as Terradons, so definitely max them out before considering him.

 

ok so just under 1500 points you take very less of them and 2000 or higher you take prity much of them (just to keep it short ;p)

 

As a start i will say thank you for posting this great way of using the Chameleons and Terradons (need to bring more in my next fight ). But then i noticed the Chief you are talking about.
Unfortunately you cannot have both the 2nd hand weapon and blowpibe but a 2nd hand weapon on a terradon won't give you the extra attack either, as i see it, since he is not a model on foot anymore.

I've used a skink chief on terradon in the 7th ed and it worked pretty well though i put some more points in him. i used to field him like this:

skink chief,terradon, blowpibe, LA
enchanted shield and venom of the firefly frog. (you could add a Luckstone 3+ is an OK save i think)

to be able to re roll his missed shooting is very nice. and i actually did some math, and the blowpibe + venom of the firefly frog killed more dryads on average than the staff of the lost sun on the same build.
I tried having 2 skink chiefs once. one with the staff and the other as you see above, it was a bit overkill I didn't really have enough good targets for both of them. I would stick to only one.
haven't tried him in 8th ed yet but he was great in the side of a small archers regiment in 7th.

(sorry if my English is not all that good, hope you can understand it though (note to self: at some time you should stop writing this and just go with it and hope people won't complain))

 

when i am reading this i am just wondering:

does a skink chief on a Terradon get a drop rock special rule?

 

Yes it does. but the rocks won't be affected by the Venom of the firefly frog though.

just a thought:
would it make any sense to put a skink bsb in a skirmish unit or terradon unit to try and take out something like vhargulf and the like?

 

i don't think so XD

 

Damn your right. I thought Additional Hand Weapons were changed like Great Weapons were for some reason.

And I see you are right that there is "one choice only". I guess I just assumed Chiefs were less gimped than they are

Shield, spear, light armour then I think. I wasn't really talking about taking these things to do much damage (then it could be worth the opponent shooting at) so I wasn't really considering magic weapons.

I like you idea of rerolling with Firefly Venom though.

Hmms lets see what else we can do...

Chief - Terradon, light armour, Sword of Swift Slaying, Charmed Shield, Potion of Strength (137)
Chief - Terradon, Blowpipe, light armour, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Venom of the Firefly (115)

The first is obviously a guided missile. Fire 3 S7 rerolling attacks at something.
Second is a rerolling blowpipe with a 3+ save.

Eh, I still prefer the pure harasser"

Chief - Terradon, Spear, light armour, shield (93)

I guess if you want you can upgrade the shield to magical.

No... Now we are getting in the make-believe one-trick-pony-for-hundreds-of-points.

 

Actualy the Sun banner of don't shoot me would be a good idea.... posible - 3 to hit ?

Also worth thinking about is the Terradon Chief woth the Sun Staff for long range 3x shots.

for a mass attack Chief how about maming shiels + Parana blade ?

 

well i think i got a bit excited when i wrote the thing about the bsb. i forgot to say that i meant the bsb to have the banner that makes it flaming attacks, so no regeneration for vhargulf and so on...

one more ting, it would look kind of cool if the terradons didn't dropped rocks but burning coal just a thought for a conversion have to think of a way that the terradon could hold the coal without getting burned

(note to self: you should keep writing what you did in the other posts, the one time you don't your post doesn't really make sense...)

(hope you will bare with my English and hope you are able to understand most of what i'm writing)

By the way, you can save 3 points on the blowpipe/venom chief if you use a normal shield and the dragon helm instead of the enchanted shield. = same save (maybe better against fire, I think the helm gives some save from that too) and less points...