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8th Ed. Wishes for 9th

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Discussion' started by SilverFaith, Jul 13, 2014.

  1. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    Rather than actual speculation or rumours, I'm actually quite interested in hearing what my fellow Lizardmen players are hoping for in 9th, either the core book or the army book.

    On the core book, I'd like to see a revision of unit types, and how they interact. Mostly, fix how characters work and act, to prevent oddities like tiktaq.

    Another thing would be fix how supporting attacks work. I find multiple attacks to be too weak compared to pretty much any other statistic, when it only works in 1 rank. It makes more attacks very weak to rank-and-file models. Even witch elves with 4 attacks seem meh, because it's only the first rank that actually benefits from that.

    In terms of the army book, I just want to see some better internal balances. Pretty much anything that that means "more skinks" isn't the answer to pretty much 70% of all problems you can think of.

    Also, give us a slann level 3 wizard option for lower point games, or more lores for skinks. It's kind of sad to either pick a small, weak wizard, or a massive pointsink premium frog who can throttle the heavens. We need an intermediate step, that isn't as limited as skinks are, but aren't as costly as Slanns are.

    Just my two cents at least. I'd love to hear some more hopes or wishes for the next updates, no matter how unlikely they are.
     
  2. Sleboda
    Troglodon

    Sleboda Active Member

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    I normally can't stand wishlisting, but what the heck, here goes -


    Core Book
    • Find a way to make all combo models into single things like cavalry. The means chariots and monsters with riders would be one single unified profile and set of rules.
    • Make Fly 20" again, and no marching for it.
    • Change the Toughness chart back to what it used to be (so, for example, S3 could not harm T7).
    • Revamp the 8 Lores, adjusting the powers of several either up or down as needed.
    • Define game terms, use them consistently, and bold them when they are used so that people can tell when something is a rule and when it is description/plain English. For eff's sake, if the word "unmodified" is present, it should mean what the word actually means, not what GW has redefined it to mean.
    • Allow for spells to be bought from points, not rolled for randomly.
    • Create a set of Initiative modifiers. For instance, Spear vs. Charging Cavarly is +4I for spearmen. Charging is +2I all the time. Turn after rally is -1I for rallied unit. Fear imposes a -2I to enemy models. And so on.
    • Remove Unstable rule from Swarms.
    • Change Ustable rule to allow Steadfast troops to ignore Unstable.
    • Remove ASL and ASF from the game. Just follow the damn Initiative sequence.
    • Remove the rule that says you round up Movement distances.
    • Eliminate Random Charges.
    • Make flee and pursuit distances = M+I+1D6.
    • Impose a (possibly optional or as part of an "Advanced & Tournament Gaming" section) set up terrain 'heights' and what blocks what. For instance - L1 Hill blocks LoS to infantry. L2 blocks cavalry and Monstrous Infantry. L3 blocks Monstrous Cav. L4 blocks Monsters.
    • Hell, add in a whole "Advanced & Tournament Gaming" section so that events all over the world have a sanctioned and consistent rules set to use. Gosh, promote and encourage events!
    • Give Supporting Attacks at full value. If we are told that these combats are 'swirling melees' then there is no need to limit the guys in other ranks ranks beyond the already extant limit on how many can attack at all to begin with. If you can fight at all, you can fight to full effect.
    • Cannons are limited in one of the following ways. Pick one:
      - one shot per game
      - d3 wounds
      - roll to hit
      - cause d6 hits to the unit, with a maximum number of hits to be no more than the number of models in the target unit (this also means eliminating the whole bounce thing)
    • Stone Throwers allow no armor saves and are S4.
    • Give cavalry Impact Hits (just 1 per model) at the Mount's Strength.
    Lizardmen Book
    • +1 WS to Saurus and Kroxigor
    • +1 T to Rippers, and I10 for Rippers but only for the unit they mark with the Blot Toad.
    • Bastiladon Initiative boost is +3.
    • +2 T to Carnosaur.
    • Give High magic to Skinks, but each Skink can only swap for one Signature Spell even if he is level 2.
    • Allow skinks to go to Level 4.
    • Troglodon's Roar replaced with "Motivating Musk" - all PF within 12" is always on 5's and 6's.
    • Reword Burning Alignment and Kroak to allow 360 and into combat.
    • PF is covered in main rules changes, but if that is not changed, then change the wording of PF to be a clear exception to the main rules and thus allow it to work from second (and later, when possible) ranks.
    • Give 50pt magic banner option to Cold One Cav.
    • Give 25pt magic banner option to one unit of Saurus Warriors.
     
  3. Markhaus
    Saurus

    Markhaus Member

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    "Remove ASL and ASF from the game. Just follow the damn Initiative sequence."
    This, this, a thousand time this. So sick of elves rerolling their already obnoxious WS against my units.

    Wow, I have read a lot of wishlists and this is the first one I agreed with almost every item. Sleboda needs to be on the 9th ed team. The only things I even remotely didn't agree with were:
    "Change the Toughness chart back to what it used to be (so, for example, S3 could not harm T7)."
    And the canon only firing once, but since you say "pick one" I liked any of the other choices for modding the canon.

    And the T7 thing is only a problem because I have fought T10 things, which would be completely immune to every unit on the field and I like the idea of a swarm of goblins taking down a stegadon. I think it would look awesome.

    I would like to see a better way of preventing miscasts than the "reroll staff". Have an item that ignores a miscast once, or even just makes it an auto 7 so I don't lose my wizard. (I look at other armies that can ignore miscasts, and I am envious)
     
  4. Sleboda
    Troglodon

    Sleboda Active Member

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    => Well, I was on the 6th ed team. Glad you liked my list! :)

    => I wondered if that one might catch someone's eye.
    The thing is, there are ways to deal with high T models, even T10, that don't rely on the Toughness chart. A swarm of goblins, to use your example, can still take down even a T8 sphinx with just ranks, banner, flank, and a charge. That's 6 ore more points of combat resolution right there.

    Then there are all the spells that insta-gib monsters.

    I like there being things in the game that are impervious to the blows of mere mortals. There should be things you cannot take out by simply piling on enough S3 attacks.
     
  5. Kcibrihp-Esurc
    Razordon

    Kcibrihp-Esurc Well-Known Member

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    I would personally raise the max stat height to give monsters a shot at surviving because being so expensive they are hard to field in sufficient numbers to survive, E.G my monster army list is 2400 and fields a TOTAL of 7 monsters, 1 Carnosaur, 2 Skink Chiefs on Stegadons, 1 Generic Stegadon & 3 Bastiladons enough to saturate most armies cannons for a few turns but has only 3 Non-Monsters which are a pair of Cham skink Units and a Large Soxigor Unit but at 220 points the Carnosaur is going to have this happen :beaver: to it quite a lot also with the raised stat height they should install the same thing for wounding as hitting with shooting. This allows the people who stubbornly cling to monsters like myself to not get reamed by two cannons BECAUSE AT ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY POINTS THEY ALMOST PAY FOR THEMSELVES BY KILLING A CARNOSAUR AND JUST NEED TO KILL FOUR SKINKS AND THEY"VE PAID FOR THEMSELVES TWICE OVER!!!
    :jawdrop: -> :rage:
     
  6. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

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    Really? Not to say it was your doing, but I very much enjoyed 6th. It was a simpler time...

    Great list as well. I doubt we'll be lucky enough for even 2 of those things to surface with 9th however.
     
  7. Moniker
    Kroxigor

    Moniker Member

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    LoS: I want unit volume a la Warmachine. 20mm bases are this big, 40mm are that big, cavalry are taller, monsterous infantry are that size, chariots are this tall, 100mmx150mm can't hide from a damn thing.

    Stupid movement things. If a unit is in front of you, but you're technically in it's frontal arc despite it being off to the side, charging shouldn't make your unit two-step and turn ninety degrees and expose a flank, it should make you move forward towards the enemy. I'm completely capable of using and exploiting these rules, as are all of my gaming group, but they're still stupid.

    Less variation in the magic phase. If I drop a 400pt wizard and a scroll caddy and don't roll more then 3 or 4 dice in a six turn game for the Winds of Magic, I get a little grumpy. It's why my Ogres run a Tyrant and two Firebellies.

    Just a few late night thoughts.
     
  8. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    The LM wishes from sleb seems like trolling haha. +2T on carno, I10 on rippers and +1WS on kroxies is either too much or doesn't make sense. Carnos are supposed to be the ultimate predator, which they actuslly are (5 S7 D3 wounds is sick), but giving them T7 would make them better tanks than the stegs, which I find absurd.

    Kroxies are builders so.. yeah..

    And while I agree that rippers should have a better initiative email it certainly shouldn't be I10. How about I4 and I5 against both toad targets. That would allow then to give anything except elfs (ASF anyway).
     
  9. Kroq
    Cold One

    Kroq New Member

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    :D I wish 9th edition to be identical to 6th ed.
    Well anyway i'd like to see magic phase depotentiated, so armies will be less dependant from a high level caster ,
    give each army all the magic items back, put more strict BG rules (as marks of chaos in 6th ed.) Characters on flying cavalry can join flying cavalry units.
    As side note: remove all the silly single miniatures photos and replace them with artworks

    For lizardmen i wish:

    Jungle swarms as core units, Nakai the wanderer the blessed spawning!, saurus monstrous cvalry
     
  10. GCPD
    Bastiladon

    GCPD Active Member

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    Its presumably to make them immune to small arms fire with the S vs Toughness reversion. Personally, I think that the only change needed is to allow Scaly Skin saves unmodifiable vs ranged attacks (including ranged attacks that automatically ignore Armour, eg Cannons and RBTs). Maybe with the caveat than anything with the 'Armour Peircing' special rule penetrates armour as usual. Given that most Scaly Skin saves are 4+, 3+ at best, I don't think this would be overpowered but would make monsters significantly less vulnerable. Melee attacks would modify Scaly Skin as usual.
     
  11. hardyworld
    Kroxigor

    hardyworld Active Member

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    Rulebook Wishlisting:

    1. Corrections/clarifications to the rulebook as included in the 8th Ed. FAQ and other general language cleanup.
    2. More emphasis on smaller games (300-1000 pts). More basic rules for Legendary Battles.
    3. Winds of Magic dice roll works slightly differently (and scales well for different size games).
    4. Channeling Magic becomes more influential (such as: each mage rolls the number of channel dice equal to their level).
    5. Mage level bonus to cast/dispel is lessened (possibly +1 for lvl1/2 and +2 for lvl3/4). This would increase the usefulness of the lvl 3 mage.
    6. Minor spell fixes for additional balance. Spell classifications are changed slightly (allowable targets/etc.).
    7. Miscast table takes into account how many dice were rolled when trying to cast the spell (chart is D6+#die rolled where higher numbers on the chart are more destructive).
    8. Cannons and Rock Lobber rules work slightly differently (different scatter rules, but Ballistic Skill of crew will matter).
    9. Losing combat to a fear/terror-causing enemy will have some additional effect (maybe -1 Ld that affects steadfast?)
    10. Regeneration works differently (like the new Hydra).
    11. Cavalry get some small bonus (possibly disrupt ranks with only 1 rank of cavalry).
    12. Breath weapons work differently (Possibly no longer 'one use only' and in close combat do D6 hits instead of 2D6.)
    13. Magic Resistance works differently (possibly roll a D6 for every level of magic resistance a unit has when any spell effect would apply to the unit, friend or foe, if any '6' is rolled the spell effect doesn't affect the unit...rare things may cause you to reroll any successful MR rolls, such as the effects of a Miscast).
    14. Charge reactions are allowed against models with Random Movement, but only if the unit passes a leadership (or maybe initiative?) test first.
    15. Monsters & Handlers rules are cleared up.
    16. Characters on Ridden Monsters work slightly differently (possibly normal shooting & template weapons both distributed on monster on 1-5, and on character on 6). A character on a flying mount may join units of fliers with the same mount.
    17. Fragile Alliances aren't nearly as fickle.
    18. Victory Points are calculated slightly differently (possibly 1/2 points for units, but not models). Return of more Victory types (Narrow Victory/Loss). Range of Draw/Narrow Victory/Victory/Crushing Victory is defined by percentage of point difference divided by smaller army size (0%-5% Draw, 5%-15% Narrow Victory, 15%-30% Victory, 30%+ Crushing Victory).
    19. The inconsistent term 'unmodified leadership' is removed from the game and a clear term and rules take it's place (such as 'Profile Leadership' which is the value in a model's statline).
    20. Flank and Rear modify the leadership value of Steadfast units (-1 Ld & -2 Ld respectively); this only applies if the Steadfast unit itself is being attacked in the Flank/Rear.
    21. Bound spells always use exactly 1 Power Die to cast; add the rolled value to the Bound Spell's Power level. A roll of a '1' does not cast and subsequently roll a D6 on a miscast chart (chance for: no additional effect, bearer takes damage, or item to no longer cast bound spells).
    22. Rework the Common Magic Items list to better balance the point costs as needed (Crown of Command, Standard of Discipline, etc.) and remove lesser used items.
    23. In challenges, attacks that have its hits distributed as shooting still distribute as shooting; however, the FIRST hit automatically hits the challenger, all subsequent hits from an attack distribute as normal.
    24. In challenges, an attacking character can always apply all their attacks within a challenge in an attempt at maximizing their overkill. This is so attacks at lower initiative are not lost and gameplay fully meets the purpose/theme of the overkill rule.
    25. Conga-line strategy is removed from the game (skirmishers in forrest, WoC Chosen, etc.) by limiting the rank-to-file ratio. Units that consist of multiple models may never finish the movement phase with their file-to-rank ratio greater than 4:1. So a unit of swarms with 4 models could all be in a line, but once you add a 5th swarm to the unit, its frontage must be at least 2 wide.
    26. By default, provide infantry characters who are not within a unit with the benefits of the skirmish special rule (for the benefit of characters shooting with ranged weapons).
    27. Give spears an additional bonus in CC when a unit wielding these are charged in their front (possibly, units that charge units equipped with spears in their front take an impact hit, at the spear-man's strength, for each file of spear-man they are in base to base contact with). This should make the trade for spears-&-shield vs. hand-weapon-&-shield slightly fairer for units where there is no cost difference between the equipment options.
    28. Thunderstomp attacks may target enemy units with the Stomp special rule in the form of a single stomp hit. This would 'step down' the Thunderstomp attacks the same way Terror is lowered to Fear when engaging enemy units that cause Fear.
    29. Clean up the characters section concerning declaring charges out of a unit.
    30. Clean up random moment issues concerning the initial wheel-in-place before movement and how it is affected by the 1" rule and charging units in its flank (allow the 'virtual pivot').
    31. Require charging fliers to 'close the door' while mid-air so that both fliers and units charged by them can both not take positional advantage by requiring the 'close the door' wheel on the ground. This will help maximize models in close combat every time.

    I'm sure I've missed quite a bit...but 8th Ed. was generally pretty great.


    Lizardmen Wishlisting:
    1. Slann Generations return (instead of the Discipline a la cart system) to increase the Slann's power, with a large difference in power between a naked 5th Generation Slann (a typical lvl 4 mage with a 4+ ward) and a tricked out 2nd Generation Slann (a return of the 6th Edition dominant Slann....at a high cost).
    2. Carnosaurs made about 30 points cheaper (no other changes!).
    3. Return allowable targets for Burning Alignment and Deliverance of Itza to 7th Ed. version.
    4. Scar-Vet return to T4 and are 10 points cheaper.
    5. Skink Chief made even cheaper with at least 1 Skink-only weapon option.
    6. Saurus warriors made more competitive in some way (1 point cheaper OR making predatory fighter more beneficial such as each 6 rolled counts as 2 hits OR reintroduction of sacred spawnings with ability to take a 25 point magic banner on sacred spawned units).
    7. Skrox units' skink-to-kroxigor ratio changed from 8:1 to 6:1.
    8. Cold One Riders either made as core or are allowed to take a magic banner (possibly cheaper?).
    9. "Ancient' Stegadon removed from rare with only a Special slot version of the monster with several upgrade options.
    10. Any Temple Guard model can accept a challenge when a Slann is within the unit.
    11. Razordon shooting is made better against armoured foes (more than just armour piercing) to differentiate their role from core skinks.
    12. Troglogon rules/point cost have total makeover.
    13. New rare monster (Titanosaur type monster) added! The Thunder Lizard finally appears!
     
  12. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    Ínteresting thoughts. Especially the TvsS thing, because that's how it works in 40k - because no matter how many flashlights you have, you aren't going to kill that massive T7 monster. It's just too tough, in the same way some vehicles are just impossible to penetrate for low S attacks.

    Oh, and one thing i forgot in the original post: spawnings would be amazing to have back.
     
  13. Putzfrau
    Skar-Veteran

    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    Buying spells would make me very sad.
     
  14. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    If they did this, the spell list would need a heavy revision.

    Not that magic doesn't need that to begin with. Magic resistance needs a buff, and those "save or die" spells need to go. Magic should be potent, but not the the point where it can wipe out 80% of the enemy army if you get lucky, which purple sun is fully capable of against low I armies.
     
  15. Screamer
    Temple Guard

    Screamer Member

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    Oh, where to begin?

    First of all, I like most things about 8th compared to 7th, and most things I dislike is not because of the basic rules, but because of the internal and external balance between books.

    Core:
    1. Line of sight. True line of sight... sucks. All terrain and model should have "height", depending on the unit-type.
    2. Allow magic resistance and ward-save against all spells.
    3. No spell should be against Initiative, since that characteristic is usually army-wide high (elves, chaos) or low (OnG, LM, ogres). WS, S, T is more varied within books, and usually between value 2-5, with 3-4 most common.
    4. Cannon remake. Maybe scatter d6-BS in random direction, then bounce in a straight line? S7 instead of S10?
    5. Magic: I like the "winds of magic"-rolls better than the "2+lvl of casters" in previous edition. But it should be a bigger difference between different magic-lvls. Lvl4 can choose one spell? More channeling rolls depending on the lvl? or 1d6+lvl, 6 or better = extra PD?

    6. Fast cav vs cavalry: Fast cav should be WAAAAY worse at fighting.

    7. Remove 1+ AS from the game... At least for units. Bold, but it would make the difference between S3 and 4 bigger, and that would be a good thing.
    8. General clear-up in the rules-department, not as many ambigous rules and regular FAQ-updates.

    More to come, got to work now:)
     
  16. Sleboda
    Troglodon

    Sleboda Active Member

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    => Interesting. Why is that? That's not one that usually gets much push back.

    After all, when you spend the points, you can get a Cannon (R60", S10, D6 wounds) not a "Ranged Gun" (R6, 12, 24 or 28; S somewhere between 3 and 10; and either 1, D3 or D6 wounds). Same for a Carnosaur instead of a "Big Mount."

    When you spend several hundred points on a Wizard, you get a random selection of capabilities. That seems wrong to me.


    Would it take a lot of re-working of the spell decks? Sure! Is that a bad thing, though? Make a magic missile like Fireball cost 10 points and Dwellers cost 100. Make the wizard himself something like 30 points for Level 1. I think it just makes sense.

    => What about it sucks? I pointed out that the need to go from the eyes is silly and that trees moving in woods can be a problem, but I think the basic idea that in a game involving three-dimensional toys you should be able to take a look to see what they see is a good one. My suggestion about hill heights would be a hybrid approach and really meant to create playable terrain more than anything else. I think you define things like hills, and maybe models, and then you let real (true) lines of sight govern the rest.

    Again, what sucks?

    => It is my belief that the Big Spells are a vital balancing factor to counter the rules that encourage large formations and also to keep the old Days of Herohammer at bay. Even that darn Tzeentch 3+ ward, re-roll 1's has a 1 in 6 chance of simply going away vs. these spells. No wonder you see more of that guy in comped events that allow wards vs. all spells or limit power dice per casting. Big Spells help to keep people from turning their armies into assemblages of heroes and also, interestingly, from turning them into groups of just 2 or 3 massive blocks.

    Big Spells with no saves are really important.



    Oh, just thought of one more general improvement I would like to see, ok, two actually:
    • Do away with Dispel Scrolls and their equivalent. Nothing else in the game an just be auto-stopped by a 25 point item. It's inane.
    • Do something, anything, to encourage people to understand that they don't have to take a L4 wizard. It's ok to take a little guy for flavor.
     
  17. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Random Lizardmen wishlist idea:

    Make Saurus Wariors and Temple Guard monstrous infantry,
    (now they get 2 attack from support ranks again) :)
     
  18. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

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    At least let us buy additional hand weapons or great weapons!

    Standard Saurus Warriors... Ugh... >_< PF is practically worthless with so few attacks!

    Love all the ideas, guys. :D Especially the Miscast table revamp.
     
  19. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    Not when they, on average, can wipe out 5/6 of any unit.

    And personally, I find the entire idea that you can instantly kill anything, regardless of what it is, to be aabsurd. Same with artillery VS huge monsters.

    And getting rid of dispel scroll and the like, I'd agree to only if you also removed IF. If I am not allowed to remove a spell, no questions asked, you should never be able to cast a spell, no questions asked, either, especially not with magic capable of wiping out entire armies in one go.
     
  20. Putzfrau
    Skar-Veteran

    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    I like that some of the game is still a little random. I like random charge distance and rolling for spells.

    Rolling for spells makes each game at least a little tiny bit different.

    I think if you had to buy spells mages would be extremely cookie cutter. You'd see the same spells all the time and it would make the game more static than it is now.

    I also think with 4 rerolls, choosing doubles and being able to swap to sigs you still get a large amount of control over your spells without it being completely static.

    In general the magic decks could use a little re balancing but i think for the most part it's actually not bad. There's only a few completely dead spells.

    Unless you had to pay for them. Then you would just see mages buying the same two or three because efficiency.
     

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