1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

7th Ed. Your core troops in 8th edition

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Floxyz, Jun 23, 2010.

  1. Floxyz
    Jungle Swarm

    Floxyz New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    With the new edition coming up pretty soon I started to think about my core units.

    I really like the random charges, stepping up and the support attacks from another rank.
    So, having these things in mind, my first questions are concerning our Saurus Warriors.

    How will you field them?
    A while ago I saw some calculations on this board, which said that using HW&Shield will be better in comparison to spears because striking order will be determind by initiative (no stat that we are blessed with) because with the shield more saurus survive = more attacks back.
    Then again I heard a rumour which said, that saurus with spears will have 2 ranks attacking twice per model and 1 rank with one attack per model. (As you are fighting with two ranks as soon, as you take spears and the support attacks always come from the rank behind the rank which is in close combat)

    So Saurus with HW&Shield or Spears?


    My other questions concern our skinks...
    I love my skirmishing skinks, running around and popping 20+ poison shots but I can't get myself to like the new rules for skirmishing units (run in formation and no 360° sight - even though the march and shoot is really nice...)

    So what do you think about skirmishing skinks in formation?

    Greets
    Flo
     
  2. Maedhros
    Saurus

    Maedhros New Member

    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The saurus warriors get two attacks in the front row, 1 atk in the second row, and if they have spears another one attack each in the third row.

    To me it seems like a key to saurus warriors will be that casualties will only be removed from the back rank. Meaning that if I have a six wide block of 18 saurus and 5 die when it finally gets to my initiative I would get 18 attacks with HW or 20 with spears.

    For units with three ranks I would definitely use HW. However since if you have more ranks than your opponent you're stubborn there are additional benefits to deep ranks that make spears more attractive. For example in a six wide unit of 24 where I lost 5 before attacking back I would still get 18 HW attacks or 24 spear attacks.

    Gotta play test. From where I am sitting right now I doubt that we will out rank our opponents very often so cheaper HW saurus sound good to me.

    With the skinks I don't think that they are getting any worse, just different. Personally I'm really not looking forward to moving them in formation (but without a tray) and will probably be trying 2 - 3 deep ranked skinks just to keep the game speed up and provide a flanking unit.
     
  3. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,158
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    48
    As to the saurus, I will wait to see what the errata says about spears and the second rank. The way the spear rule (attack in 2 ranks) reads to me, we should get 2 attacks for the first two rows then the 1 supporting attack for the third row (and the fourth row if they are ranked in 10s). We will see.

    Skinks:

    I have thought about this and I really like using skinks.

    For the skirmishers, take up to 30 skinks, make a tray that I can easily rearrange to rank if they hold and shoot. At the end of the move, use the free reform to make 2 ranks (which both get to shoot). After move and shoot (with the quick to fire rule-haven't seen it yet on paper) there is no penalty for moving or distance with blowpipes. Then, let the 6s roll. I think the to wound table is more favorable in the 8th edition (not sure about the to hit table).

    For Cohorts take at least 32 skinks with 4 krox per unit. Or really go all out and do 64 skinks and 8 krox (with that build, you should get the first rank of attacks -skinks, both ranks of krox [24 attacks], then an additional rank of supporting attacks for the horde rule.


    Just my thoughts...
     
  4. vapor
    Razordon

    vapor New Member

    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm making a magnetized tray for my skirmishers with the 1/2 inch distance marked off in paint dots. That way I can expand and contract them as needed and still move quickly.
     
  5. kroxigor01
    Ripperdactil

    kroxigor01 Member

    Messages:
    451
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Why take 30 skinks when you could take 3 lots of 10?
     
  6. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,158
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Because I want the 60 shots at whatever I am shooting at. The units that do charge, I will flee from (most of the time). But I should be able to get in some shots before the charge. At least with 30, when they are ranked, they will hold against the CC long enough to maybe get a flank charge in with something else.

    The 8th edition makes the horde hammer, so my horde will be a sea of skinks! :bored:
     
  7. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

    Messages:
    1,410
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0
    For reasons why NOT to do 64 skinks and 8 krox, please refer to the following spells.

    Flame cage - Can't move, or every model in unit takes str 4 hit.. this means 5/6 of your skinks die.
    Oh wow, this just triggered an idea for a great synergy. Slann with fire casts flame cage, then skink with wind spell forces the unit to move. Every model takes a str 4! Slann boosting toughness will help shrug this one off.

    Final Transmutation - 1/3 skinks dead, 1/6 krox dead - not as bad as flame cage, but still devastating. This one will bypass any sort of buff spells from your Slann.

    The Dwellers Below - 1/2 skinks dead, 1/3 krox dead - ouch. Occam's Mindrazor would save you from this one, but that's assuming you take shadows magic and can keep it on the unit.

    Any debuff spells will also really hurt. The game has included some balancing factors to prevent "death stars". I can't wait to open up a can of "Dwellers Below" on a horde unit of str 3 basic troops that has tucked all sorts of characters into the front ranks. I'll burn up my Cupped Hands of the old ones casting that beast of a spell on 6 dice irresistable, then transfer the miscast and kill some more!

    By the same token, you could argue that buff spells will boost this whole giant unit, but I don't see them being that effective.
     
  8. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,158
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I didn't think of the defense as much as offensive strategy. Good points. I could possibly take other units that draw fire away from those units or try to ensure that I can dispel those spells (yea, right).

    I'm still going to take my 30 skirmishers. I just like that. May break the units of cohorts down some though.
     
  9. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

    Messages:
    1,410
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If I understand the rumors correctly, skirmishers will still only be able to fire in 2 ranks. So 30 would never all be able to fire at the same target. I think you could probably bump up to units of 12 if you really want to put out more damage, but I would agree 3 x 10 would probably enable you to get more shots off. That way if the first two sets of 10 wipes out your target, then next unit can go after something else. I know rolling 60 dice in one batch would be fun, but I don't think it's going to be possible to get line of sight for all of them.

    I think if you want to try out the horde with lizardmen, you could try just plain skinks. 40 skinks is only 200 points, then you can throw in command for 20 more. They aren't going to be very good in combat of course, but their stand and shoot reaction of 20 poisoned javelins will be pretty nice. And of course there is the buffing from the Slann and what have you, but they will be cut away pretty quick. What might work decently is two units of 20, in lines of 10 just for the shooting support. Since javelins will always be able to stand and shoot, you can ensure the enemy takes punishment on the way in. So long as you aren't charged by a big infantry unit, you should be able to bog the enemy down a bit as well. Not bad for 100 points, and it would wreak havoc on support units. Don't forget your musicians!
     
  10. Floxyz
    Jungle Swarm

    Floxyz New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    About the horde rule:
    lizzies just are no horde army so we shouldn't force our only Horde-like unit (skinks) to play this role.

    I read some opinions on skinks and I think I'll just have to try them to see if I like them.


    I'd like to hear more thoughts on the saurus warriors.
    I think alot depends on the Support attacks.

    If it's like
    222222
    111111
    111111
    I guess I would prefer HW shield

    but if it is like
    222222
    222222
    111111
    Spears would have huge damage potential

    Greetings
    Flo
     
  11. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,158
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    48

    I am hoping that the free reform will allow me to reform them into two ranks of 15. That would be a wonderful 60 shots at 24 inches and with little or no penalty for the double tap or move. Then if the stand and shoot takes place before they rank up they get those shots as well. But most of the time, they will be running from chargers. (if not, I will get 24 shots).
     
  12. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

    Messages:
    1,410
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0
    15 wide will take a lot of real estate considering the 1/2 inch gap between models. I guess I'm not seeing why they all have to be in one unit... apart from you just want to roll 60 dice at once!
     
  13. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,158
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    48
    In one unit on a stand and shoot, I will get more shots. The thought of 60 dice does appeal to me, but the units that are coming across the table will have more models in them as well. 60 shots from one unit will help cut those numbers down. I will try it both ways anyway as of now, I have not played with the new edition rules.

    I do agree that the 2x15 will be alot of real estate. It could be that units of 10-20 would be better and just flee everything and sacrifice the unit until another unit can be brought up to fight.

    We will see.
     
  14. Scarecrow
    Saurus

    Scarecrow New Member

    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The Troop make that I've been looking at (don't play enough to rumors test it, but...) is:

    1-2 blocks of 18 Saurus-F/C (6x3) with spears. They have the same AS as HW Saurus, since the shield+HW is a 6+ ward save not a +1 to AS. A 6+ ward save will have a close to a negligible on the survivability of the Saurus (1 out of 6 saves meaning 3 out of 18, not worth it) so I went for damage out put.

    2 blocks of 17 Skorks w/2 Krox- Muisc. Fast, medium flankers in a 5x5 so they have a decent chance of out ranking the enemy unless your opponent is a hoard. And they knock out enemy ranks since they're infantry.

    3-4 "blocks" of 10 skirmishers w/blowpipes that act as screeners and redirectors. They can move and shoot their blowpipes giving them an effective 18' range with a -1 for long range, -1 for double tap still gets you 20 poisoned attacks. At the same time they're still skirmishers, incurring a -1 to hit them with range (thus still screeners) and because of the new "block" rule for skirmishers they can now effectively redirect enemy charges giving you the flank a good portion of the time.




    Over all with the 8th rumors I can see skink armies becoming quite good. Nothing in core but skorks and skirmishers, a chief on a ancient w/SSH (18', LD 8 buff because of the monstrous mount), terridons, Ancients and Salamanders. Mild hoard w/good LD and heavy support.
     
  15. Scarecrow
    Saurus

    Scarecrow New Member

    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0


    It's hard enough to field a 10 wide block, let alone a 15 (30 actually since a 1/2' is a little larger than the skinks base size). 3 of 10 would be much more effective unless you want to block off one side of the board, than maybe I could see 30 skirm. being effective. But as far as over all effectiveness, 3 of 10 take the cake. They have more maneuverability allowing them to threaten a larger area, you still can roll 60 dice if they all shoot at one target (which in all my years of playing I have never had to do) and they are more survivable. One good CC attack on that 60 block and it's toast, one lucky Screaming Skull Catapult on that unit and it's toast, one good Plagueclaw Catapult on that unit and it's toast...I could go on, but you get the idea. One unlucky shot, die roll or what have you and 310 points of awesomeness just ran off the board. And that's allot of points to lose in one unit that already has a lowish rate of survivability.
     
  16. zenocide
    Jungle Swarm

    zenocide New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    right now as it is in 8th, the spears are as such

    222222
    111111
    111111

    but, if you get charged you get the third rank's support attacks, and during the second round of combat you get the third rank, but if you charged, you only get the second ranks support attacks.

    i have been play testing 8th as lizard men, and i get the best success out of my saurus at 5x4 or even 5x5 formations. this makes sure you will probably get rank bounus, and also get some more attacks into the face of peoples. also it makes sure this doesn't happen to your lizards:

    :beaver:

    and you get more :jimlad:

    now at 6x3 i find that HW and shield work the best, but that they 5x4 formation is better in general.

    skinks are going to be interesting, haven't really played all that much with them yet, but i have found that 6x2 works best for their 'blocks' as they don't take up much real estate, pack a punch, yet if they get charged and die, it is meh.

    -zenocide
     
  17. Dreadgrass
    Ripperdactil

    Dreadgrass Member

    Messages:
    463
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I also like the idea of 5x4 or 5x5 SpearSaurus as, if a lot of people are going to be running 10 wide units, you can fit a hard hitting unit (Templeguard, Krox, Steg, Carno, etc.) in beside it! This gives their rank bonus and attacks combined with the combat boost of whatever you care to use in support!

    Not to mention those enemy horde units will mostly (at least without buff-spells) be Strength/ Toughness 3 so the extra saurus attacks can help scythe them down and the extra rank over 6x3 means it'll be easier to get a higher rank bonus than your enemy, denying them stubborn.
     
  18. Caeldan
    Saurus

    Caeldan New Member

    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah... in 7th ed I preferred 6x3...
    but 8th I'm looking at no more than 5 wide now so I get a minimum of 4 ranks to start. Too many attacks going to be going back and forth now to try counting on surviving to keep your ranks.

    Also consider 25mmX5 = 125mm vs 25X6 = 150mm..

    So against a 20mm base, you're only in contact with up to 7 wide vs 8 wide.
    Against a 40mm base you're in contact with 3 wide vs 4 wide.

    This can make a difference against horde blocks as that's an extra column of attacks you've just denied your opponent.

    As far as skinks go, I haven't decided which route I'm going...
    Blowpipes have the double tap, but no quick to fire and they get the penalty to movement.
    Javelins don't have the penalty to movement, but are quick to fire which means I can always stand and shoot.
     
  19. Scarecrow
    Saurus

    Scarecrow New Member

    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    An idea I have been playing around with for the past 5 min. A 10 wide regiment isn't strictly a hoard army thing. Look at what a hoard does best, and that's have lots of infantry in really large (long) regiments so the Steadfast rules always count for their (generally) low ld. But for a non-hoard like Lizards, take a saurus unit of 30, field 'em 10x3 and that's 41 attacks. Their high tough, medium armor should protect them from most attacks the enemy can through (thinking basic troop). Throw some skirmishers in there to screen for 'em, an EoTG within bubble range, Salamanders and cav on one flank, an Ancient and a Carnosaur on the other. Block the center with a hard unit of troops and swamp with heavy flankers on either side. I'll post the list of exactly what I was thinking.
     
  20. wolfmage
    Temple Guard

    wolfmage New Member

    Messages:
    217
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Is there an faq that removes the unit size restriction on skirmishers because the codex says you can only take 20 skirmishers in a unit. Also if you dump that many points into a unit expect to get charged by the first steamtank you come across.
     

Share This Page