AoS Second Edition

[Canas]

But a good deal more realistic. This rule would give melee armies so much more of a chance against ranged ones. In addition, what is the plight of a single unit compared to that of several armies? If it stops a load of armies being retconned because they’re no good anymore at the price of perhaps one or two units becoming significantly worse than before, then I’d gladly have that rule in the book. And GW are planning to drop armies - they’ve said so on the Warhammer Legends Page.

O, I'd be fine with shooting not working in melee for the proper archers and such provided the guys like the bastiladon or kairic acolytes who are supposed to get into the thick of it but have a decent chunk of power locked in their ranged attacks get a slight rework to ensure they can still fullfill their intended function and we don't end up in the awkward situation where a bastiladon gets stuck in combat for 5 turns with a unit of fodder and doesn't get anywhere. He is supposed to get into combat, so he should still function.

But...but...special rules are Fantasy-esque! They’re more fun for a start!

You're sounding a lot like @NIGHTBRINGER like that

 

[Aginor]

This rule would give melee armies so much more of a chance against ranged ones.

As someone who plays against Ironjawz quite often I can say that's an important thing. If you have sufficient range on the ranged weapons or good movement then melee heavy armies are in a bad place, even if your shooting isn't that strong (like ours). Ironjawz very rarely win against me (except in very small games or with a stupid amount of luck), changes in the shooting rules could help here.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

You're sounding a lot like @NIGHTBRINGER like that

I’m trying to create a compromise between AoS and fantasy by making AoS more similar to fantasy to please both sides of the divide. Bridge the gap, as it were. I’m trying to remain open-minded about AoS but I’m also wishing for more of my favourite features in Fantasy to make it in the new edition.

As someone who plays against Ironjawz quite often I can say that's an important thing. If you have sufficient range on the ranged weapons or good movement then melee heavy armies are in a bad place, even if your shooting isn't that strong (like ours). Ironjawz very rarely win against me (except in very small games or with a stupid amount of luck), changes in the shooting rules could help here.

Certainly it would be a boon to all melee based armies. Ironjawz and Fyreslayers are more competent because they are more resilient (and in the case of Ironjawz quite fast) but armies like Bonesplitterz and Flesh Eater Courts are losing out at the moment because not only do they have old books but they are also primarily melee armies that are lightly armoured and need to get into the thick of it quickly, especially to neutralise shooty armies. At the moment when they get into melee shooty armies can say “Ha! I can still blast away your melee troops!” and let fly, whereas in reality shooty armies’ troops would be stuffed in melee by all odds. Certainly this was the case in Fantasy.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

You're sounding a lot like @NIGHTBRINGER like that

A worthy ambition!

 

[Christopher]

And now we know what the new Warscrolls are going to look like.

 

[Canas]

And now we know what the new Warscrolls are going to look like.

View attachment 43557

looks like a cool unit. I especially like his supportive capabilities.

I’m trying to create a compromise between AoS and fantasy by making AoS more similar to fantasy to please both sides of the divide. Bridge the gap, as it were. I’m trying to remain open-minded about AoS but I’m also wishing for more of my favourite features in Fantasy to make it in the new edition.

O there's bound to be some stuff we could take from fantay, but I'm sure the diehards on either side will just scream blasphemy

Certainly it would be a boon to all melee based armies. Ironjawz and Fyreslayers are more competent because they are more resilient (and in the case of Ironjawz quite fast) but armies like Bonesplitterz and Flesh Eater Courts are losing out at the moment because not only do they have old books but they are also primarily melee armies that are lightly armoured and need to get into the thick of it quickly, especially to neutralise shooty armies. At the moment when they get into melee shooty armies can say “Ha! I can still blast away your melee troops!” and let fly, whereas in reality shooty armies’ troops would be stuffed in melee by all odds. Certainly this was the case in Fantasy.

Did fantasy have an equivalent of a bastiladon with solar engine and of kairic acolytes? So a behemoth with a mounted gun with his firepowerfairly neatly divided between melee and ranged and a melee standard infantry unit that does have a significant chunk of its firepower stuck in ranged attacks and needs those attacks to actually win any fights? And if so what where their rules?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

O there's bound to be some stuff we could take from fantay, but I'm sure the diehards on either side will just scream blasphemy

(you are correct)

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Did fantasy have an equivalent of a bastiladon with solar engine and of kairic acolytes? So a behemoth with a mounted gun with his firepowerfairly neatly divided between melee and ranged and a melee standard infantry unit that does have a significant chunk of its firepower stuck in ranged attacks and needs those attacks to actually win any fights? And if so what where their rules?

Fantasy had the Bastiladon, but not the Acolytes. The Bastiladon was more potent as a ranged unit originally - he was able to beat units of troops S3 and below but wasn’t all that competent in melee apart from its Thunderous Bludgeon attack.

On the other hand the Solar Engine I thought could be absolutely brutal at times - I was once able to incinerate 4 Ogre Leadbelchers in a single shot with it.

 

[Canas]

Fantasy had the Bastiladon, but not the Acolytes. The Bastiladon was more potent as a ranged unit originally - he was able to beat units of troops S3 and below but wasn’t all that competent in melee apart from its Thunderous Bludgeon attack.

On the other hand the Solar Engine I thought could be absolutely brutal at times - I was once able to incinerate 4 Ogre Leadbelchers in a single shot with it.

Was it still supposed to be an unmovable meatshield then? Cuz the WHFB version you're describing seems more like mobile artilery than the AoS version which is supposed to be extremely durable and be used to block hard-hitting opponents with his damage output being fairly mediocre for a behemoth (unless you roll perfectly, then the solar engine can decimate things.. but the average is just 2 forced saves at -1 rend and 2 damage).

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Was it still supposed to be an unmovable meatshield then? Cuz the WHFB version you're describing seems more like mobile artilery than the AoS version which is supposed to be extremely durable and be used to block hard-hitting opponents with his damage output being fairly mediocre for a behemoth (unless you roll perfectly, then the solar engine can decimate things.. but the average is just 2 forced saves at -1 rend and 2 damage).

The fantasy version appears to be similar then. Its melee damage output is pretty mediocre as it has 3 Strength 4 Attacks and 1 Strength 10 attack from its tail, meaning it’ll only kill around 2-3 models a turn if they are low toughness and armour. Also the Solar Engine decimates things only if you roll a 4+ - on a 4-5 it inflicts 2D6 Strength 5 hits and on a 6 it inflicts 2D6 Strength 6 hits with a -1 penalty to WS and BS for 1 turn. On a 1 it inflicts D6 Strength 3 hits (pathetic) and on a 2-3 it inflicts D6 Strength 4 hits (not much better). Its main boon is its 2+ Scaly Skin save which can still be modified by Attacks with Strength 4 or higher.

 

[Canas]

The fantasy version appears to be similar then. Its melee damage output is pretty mediocre as it has 3 Strength 4 Attacks and 1 Strength 10 attack from its tail, meaning it’ll only kill around 2-3 models a turn if they are low toughness and armour. Also the Solar Engine decimates things only if you roll a 4+ - on a 4-5 it inflicts 2D6 Strength 5 hits and on a 6 it inflicts 2D6 Strength 6 hits with a -1 penalty to WS and BS for 1 turn. On a 1 it inflicts D6 Strength 3 hits (pathetic) and on a 2-3 it inflicts D6 Strength 4 hits (not much better). Its main boon is its 2+ Scaly Skin save which can still be modified by Attacks with Strength 4 or higher.

I think it's melee capabilities seem better in WFHB, the AoS version is only reliable going to kill 2-3 models if they have 1 wound and a save of 6+ or no save. So it's really only a threat to clanrats and the like,and even then it's going to take ages to wade through a full unit of em. Sturdier stuff is liable to go multiple rounds without a single loss. Though, again, if you roll perfectly it can deal upwards of 9 wounds, which at least gets you somewhere though it isn't outright amazing nog is it terribly likely.

It seems like less of his strength is put into the solar engine in the case of WHFB, so losing acces to it is less of an issue.

 

[Aginor]

Are you sure? Its melee weapons is 3 attacks at 2" range, with 3/3/-1/d3 which isn't too bad IMO.
In fact it is better than the damage output of some support heroes or elite Infantry:
- Saurus Oldblood carrying a Suntooth Maul
- Astrolith Bearer
- Lord Castellant
- Orruk Brute armed with a Gore-Choppa (the special weapon)

Granted, those are not too great in melee compared to real dedicated melee heroes, but still better than most wizards at least. The fact that it has rend helps a lot.

So I wouldn't exactly call the Basti's melee capabilities weak, especially since he will most likely be there for more than a round. Most melee heroes that have better attacks have less wounds and/or a worse save (a Savage Big Boss for example), OR they are almost as expensive as he is (a Lord Celestant on Dracoth for example).

 

[Canas]

Are you sure? Its melee weapons is 3 attacks at 2" range, with 3/3/-1/d3 which isn't too bad IMO.
In fact it is better than the damage output of some support heroes or elite Infantry:
- Saurus Oldblood carrying a Suntooth Maul
- Astrolith Bearer
- Lord Castellant
- Orruk Brute armed with a Gore-Choppa (the special weapon)

Granted, those are not too great in melee compared to real dedicated melee heroes, but still better than most wizards at least. The fact that it has rend helps a lot.

So I wouldn't exactly call the Basti's melee capabilities weak, especially since he will most likely be there for more than a round. Most melee heroes that have better attacks have less wounds and/or a worse save (a Savage Big Boss for example), OR they are almost as expensive as he is (a Lord Celestant on Dracoth for example).

Those are all significantly cheaper than the bastiladon. If you spend the same amount of points a bastiladon costs you get a far better melee force.

Anyways, I'm not saying the bastiladon melee is necesary weak. I'm saying that so much of his firepower is tied up in his ranged weapons that he needs it in order to actually go and block some major threat (which is his main puprpose), say another behemoth or a 40 man horde of buffed up guys, and come out on top. Without his ranged weapons he simply losses so much firepower that apart from just standing in the way he won't do much.

To put this into perspective a bastiladon with solar engine vs 40 skaven clanrats in melee:

Currently he could do the following:
Your turn:
Shooting:
Solar :2D6/4+/3+/-1/2 averaging: 4.66 damage
Javalins: 4/5+/4+/-/1: averaging: .22 damage (after saves)

Melee:
Tail: 3/3+/3+/-1/D3 averaging: 2.66 damage
Total: ~7.5 damage

Battleshock: an average another 7 flee

Opponents tun:
Melee:
Tail: 3/3+/3+/-1/D3 averaging: 2.66 damage

Battleshock: an average 1 flees.

Total losses per turn: about 18. So it takes about 2-3 turns to wipe out the entire unit of clanrats on average depending on where you fall on the bellcurve.

If we aren't allowed to shoot in melee we are only left with our melee attack resulting in 3.66 losses on average in both our opponents and our turn. Resulting in roughly 7 losses per turn meaning it now takes roughly 6 turns to wipe out a unit of clanrats, and even then only barely (1 unlucky roll and it takes an entire extra turn...). hell given how much time he now needs to actually kill the clanrats they might even be capable of overrunning him. With a 3+ save he should fall after about 24 succesfull attacks. That'd take about 144 skaven spear attacks (not counting the horde bonusses). with them Dying/fleeing at 7/turn this would be viable as long as at least 10 skaven reach him with their attacks each turn. Which should be more than doable.

Hence the loss of his ranged weaponry would mean a bastiladon would struggle to actuall win a fight against even a mere unit of clanrats on his own. That is how much of his firepower is tied up into the solar engine. Hence completly removing his ability to shoot in melee seems like a very harsh nerf to me, to the point where he wouldn't be all that good anymore at his intended purpose.

For clarity, a similar case can be made for the ark of sotek, but seeing as that's an AoE attack and not single target the comparison is a tad more complicated to do fairly.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Those are all significantly cheaper than the bastiladon. If you spend the same amount of points a bastiladon costs you get a far better melee force.

Anyways, I'm not saying the bastiladon melee is necesary weak. I'm saying that so much of his firepower is tied up in his ranged weapons that he needs it in order to actually go and block some major threat (which is his main puprpose), say another behemoth or a 40 man horde of buffed up guys, and come out on top. Without his ranged weapons he simply losses so much firepower that apart from just standing in the way he won't do much.

To put this into perspective a bastiladon with solar engine vs 40 skaven clanrats in melee:

Currently he could do the following:
Your turn:
Shooting:
Solar :2D6/4+/3+/-1/2 averaging: 4.66 damage
Javalins: 4/5+/4+/-/1: averaging: .22 damage (after saves)

Melee:
Tail: 3/3+/3+/-1/D3 averaging: 2.66 damage
Total: ~7.5 damage

Battleshock: an average another 7 flee

Opponents tun:
Melee:
Tail: 3/3+/3+/-1/D3 averaging: 2.66 damage

Battleshock: an average 1 flees.

Total losses per turn: about 18. So it takes about 2-3 turns to wipe out the entire unit of clanrats on average depending on where you fall on the bellcurve.

If we aren't allowed to shoot in melee we are only left with our melee attack resulting in 3.66 losses on average in both our opponents and our turn. Resulting in roughly 7 losses per turn meaning it now takes roughly 6 turns to wipe out a unit of clanrats, and even then only barely (1 unlucky roll and it takes an entire extra turn...). hell given how much time he now needs to actually kill the clanrats they might even be capable of overrunning him. With a 3+ save he should fall after about 24 succesfull attacks. That'd take about 144 skaven spear attacks (not counting the horde bonusses). with them Dying/fleeing at 7/turn this would be viable as long as at least 10 skaven reach him with their attacks each turn. Which should be more than doable.

Hence the loss of his ranged weaponry would mean a bastiladon would struggle to actuall win a fight against even a mere unit of clanrats on his own. That is how much of his firepower is tied up into the solar engine. Hence completly removing his ability to shoot in melee seems like a very harsh nerf to me, to the point where he wouldn't be all that good anymore at his intended purpose.

For clarity, a similar case can be made for the ark of sotek, but seeing as that's an AoE attack and not single target the comparison is a tad more complicated to do fairly.

It just means you will have to put a unit of Saurus in front of him or something to protect him and to allow him to keep firing the Solar Engine, i.e. playing more tactically, and will force your opponent to play more tactically too to counter this. The Bastiladon is taller than Saurus so should be able to shoot over them.

It also makes more sense thematically as if a load of Skaven are swarming all around a Bastiladon, the crew would be frantically trying to beat them off and probably wouldn’t have much opportunity to fire the Solar Engine. Furthermore, even if they were able to, the Skaven would be too close to suffer much damage as it can’t pivot downwards or anything.

 

[Canas]

It just means you will have to put a unit of Saurus in front of him or something to protect him and to allow him to keep firing the Solar Engine, i.e. playing more tactically, and will force your opponent to play more tactically too to counter this. The Bastiladon is taller than Saurus so should be able to shoot over them.

I wouldn't call that "more tactically" I'd call that "completly changing the intended purpose of the Bastiladon and now using it appropriatly for its new purpose". Hence why I'd say they should include new melee profiles for these kind of units so that they can still function in their current roles despite losing significant chunks of their firepower. Seeing as the ranged weapons can no longer be used in melee this should be doable without overpowering them.

Alternatively; the changed role can be accepted but then I'd expect a signifcant point reduction for these models seeing as they've lost the ability to fullfill certain roles as well as something to plug the holes that pop up in army rosters now.

It also makes more sense thematically as if a load of Skaven are swarming all around a Bastiladon, the crew would be frantically trying to beat them off and probably wouldn’t have much opportunity to fire the Solar Engine. Furthermore, even if they were able to, the Skaven would be too close to suffer much damage as it can’t pivot downwards or anything.

O fluff-wise the logic makes some sense. Though I really don't think a unit of skaven should be of any real threat towards a bastiladon regardless of it being able to shoot a solar engine at em. Hence why i'd want them to get a different melee profile to make up or it. Similarly not all weapons become impossible to use in melee (e.g. kairic acolytes magic bolts don't have much of a reason not to work against their melee target). So yeah, change the melee profiles to make up for the gaps that pop up due to the sudden lack of half their weapons and only the proper ranged troops (say, judicators or knight venators) should really be directly nerfed by it.

 

[Aginor]

Those are all significantly cheaper than the bastiladon. If you spend the same amount of points a bastiladon costs you get a far better melee force.

Sure, I was only comparing melee attacks. What makes the basti expensive (and strong) is its defense and its shooting.
Otherwise I pretty much agree.

 

[Christopher]

Faction Focus on the Stormcast Eternals is up at the Community site.

Questions: (1) Have we seen the "human" keyword before? and (2) Does this indicate to others--as it does to me--that there will still only be the two "standard" spells in the core rules, despite the speculation by some folks that there would be expanded spell choice across the board?

 

[Canas]

Sure, I was only comparing melee attacks. What makes the basti expensive (and strong) is its defense and its shooting.
Otherwise I pretty much agree.

Hence my opinion it'd need some compensation if it's going to lose its shooting power

Faction Focus on the Stormcast Eternals is up at the Community site.

Questions: (1) Have we seen the "human" keyword before? and (2) Does this indicate to others--as it does to me--that there will still only be the two "standard" spells in the core rules, despite the speculation by some folks that there would be expanded spell choice across the board?

View attachment 43611

Freeguild stuff has the human keyword.

Shame for the base-spells if they keep that at two. It'd be an easy way of extending magic...

Also, spirit storm is basicly Kroaks celestial deliverance, but with guaranteed maximum range, 1 wound instead of D3 (and no bonus to daemons) and an additional debuff to run and charge rolls. They've gone and made a basic stormcast-wizard comparable to one of Kroak's most impactfull spells.....

Also, this wizard has the same melee attack as a freaking bastiladon, alongside the same save. Since it's probably gonne be only a 100-120 points, cuz why would SCE heroes on foot ever be more expensive than that, it arguably has the same effective wounds per point..

There might be a small amount of powercreep in this new version of AoS...

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Faction Focus on the Stormcast Eternals is up at the Community site.

Questions: (1) Have we seen the "human" keyword before? and (2) Does this indicate to others--as it does to me--that there will still only be the two "standard" spells in the core rules, despite the speculation by some folks that there would be expanded spell choice across the board?

View attachment 43611

The one thing interesting about the Sacrosanct chamber is that they seem to be the Fantasy equivalent of Grey Knights - an army of sorcerers attempting to purge the land of creatures of magic, I.e. Daemons and ghosts.

About the spells, that sucks. I had honestly thought that GW had changed their mind about this different-spells-for-each-unit system. I had honestly thought they had fully decided to go back to WFB lores. Really annoying.

Anyway, here’s hoping that they look at the half-decent factions first in subsequent faction foci. I will never forgive them if they do Sylvaneth before Kharadron or Fyreslayers.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

There might be a small amount of powercreep in this new version of AoS...

Let’s hope the more badass factions get the power creep and the rubbish like Sylvaneth get kicked out. Those abominations deserve it.

Ok, so Stormcast got powercreep too but they’re GW’s faves at the moment. GW can still turn this around if they give the proper factions the powercreep.