Thought Experiment: A New WFB Faction

[J.Logan]

You might have also seen this post on Reddit (yes, it was I), but hey, ya'll here in nice pleasant Lustria are far more intellectual than some random Redditors!

***

Thought Experiment: A New Faction

Today, we have a thought experiment. I'll give my take, you can give your own ideas for the same basic premise, or just give commentary on my own take. Either or.

For today's thought experiment, I pondered to myself, if I were tasked by GeeDubs to create a new faction, with the general theme being "the Warhammer version of the Byzantine Empire", how would I go about it? This was totally not at all a brain worm that came about from playing Medieval 2 Total War and getting into an argument with the Byzantine.

So, first thought, if we're going for a Warhammer-ified Byzantine, that means that they are a surviving splinter of the old Reman Empire. And if we take out actual historical influence at heart, that means that where the Byzantine eventually fell to the Ottoman Empire, this faction would be in a constant feud with the Chaos Dwarfs, who are the closest analogue to the Otts. Hmm... I can work with this!

***

1. Faction Name and Identity

• Name: Known as the "Aurean Empire" or "Empire of Sun and Stone," referencing their rich heritage and resilience.
  
  
• Capital: A fortified city, perhaps Ourescia, known for its opulent architecture, domed temples, and intricate mosaics, reminiscent of Constantinople.
  
  
• Emperor/Autocrat: The faction is ruled by an Autokrator (a title similar to "Emperor"), considered a semi-divine guardian of order and faith against the encroaching forces of Chaos.

2. Culture and Society

• Martial and Religious Zeal: Like Kislev, this faction has developed a zealous culture around defending against the darkness of the Dark Lands. Their faith is central, possibly oriented around worship of a saint-like figure, derived from ancient Reman practices, who ascended to protect them.
  
  
• The Bulwark of the South: Furthering the Kislev comparison, where Kislev is the bulwark that holds back the tide of Chaos coming from the wastes, The Aurean Empire is the bulwark that stems the tide of Chaos Dwarfs and greenskins that try to enter from the south, from the Badlands and the Darklands. The Aurean Empire hold this title with a sense of pride, they have survived centuries of holding back the worst that could come from the south-east.
  
  
• Legacy of the Reman Empire: They view themselves as the last true inheritors of Reman culture, preserving knowledge, art, and martial traditions that have decayed elsewhere.
  
  
• Ecclesiastic Bureaucracy: A significant part of their administration involves the Divine Synod—a council of clergy-scholars who interpret ancient texts, shaping the law and morality of the realm.

3. Military and Strategy

• Heavily Armored Cataphracts: Their armies would emphasize heavily armored cavalry, akin to the cataphracts, with lance and mace, designed to withstand and counter the shock of Chaos Dwarfs and greenskin hordes.
  
  
• Pike and Archer Infantry: Their infantry would consist of disciplined pikemen and archers, trained in defensive tactics to create unyielding phalanxes.
  
  
• Magical Engineers: Their engineers, remnants of ancient Reman ingenuity, use blessed flame weapons and possibly even enchanted oil that burns in cursed black flames, a counter to the Dawi-Zharr’s own weapons of war.
  
  
• Bombards: While they are very firmly traditional, unlike the Bretonnians they do not consider gunpowder to be a taboo, but such weapons are extremely limited, to the point that most of their bombards are placed on their city and fortress walls for defence, with a small number of grand bombards being brought to the field on only the most dire of occasions. These bombards would be made of bronze.

4. Magic and Religion

• Faith-based Magic: The priest-mages, or Hieronoduli, channel their divine magic through relics and holy texts, creating powerful defensive and healing spells.
  
  
• Reliquaries and Icons: Their armies carry holy relics into battle, believed to be imbued with the spirits of saints or ancient heroes. These relics serve both as moral inspiration and magical protection, creating sanctified zones that repel Chaos.
  
  
• Prophetic Tradition: The Empire has soothsayers and oracles, who interpret dreams and visions as divine messages, guiding military campaigns or fortifying the populace’s faith in times of crisis.

5. Diplomacy and Allies

• Respected but Isolated: Although respected for their resilience, this faction’s geographical isolation makes alliances with the Empire or other Old World states difficult. They may have tentative relations with Tilea and border princes but are often self-reliant.
  
  
• The Struggle for Resources: As they are constantly under siege, they might lack the wealth of the northern nations, relying on old fortifications and centuries-old military tradition, with mercenaries filling gaps where needed.

6. Enemies

• Chaos Dwarfs (Dawi-Zharr): Their greatest and most enduring threat. The Aurean Empire would clash frequently with Chaos Dwarfs over territory, resources, and ideological hatred, viewing them as perversions of the natural world.
  
  
• Goblinoids and Beastmen: The Badlands teem with greenskins, beastmen, and other corrupted beings, ensuring constant skirmishes at the empire’s borders.
  
  
• Skaven Intrusions: A lurking threat under the capital’s catacombs, kept at bay by the vigilant, sewer-guard known as the Vigil Obscura.

Despite the name, I actually picture the Aurean Empire to be an empire in name only, time and constant clashes with the Dawi-Zhaar have slowly worn them down to the point that they have only a handful of fortresses, their capital city and a few towns and farms left to their name.

Geographically, I would envision that they are at the south-eastern edge of the Border Princes' borders, but since they are based on the Byzantine, their capital of Ourescia needs to be a harbour city, so I'm not fully certain of that placement. Somebody better learned of Warhammer Fantasy's geography can probably do a better job of giving a specific point where such a faction could be based. Heck, feel free to put a circle on an official map saying "the city of Ourescia would be perfect here!".

***

So, what do ya'll think of this notion? Could it feasibly work? Is this all a waste of time? What would you do differently with the same task of creating a Warhammer Byzantine Empire?

Let me know. Even if it is just to mock me for having too much time on my hands.

Peace!

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

You might have also seen this post on Reddit (yes, it was I), but hey, ya'll here in nice pleasant Lustria are far more intellectual than some random Redditors!

***

Thought Experiment: A New Faction

Today, we have a thought experiment. I'll give my take, you can give your own ideas for the same basic premise, or just give commentary on my own take. Either or.

For today's thought experiment, I pondered to myself, if I were tasked by GeeDubs to create a new faction, with the general theme being "the Warhammer version of the Byzantine Empire", how would I go about it? This was totally not at all a brain worm that came about from playing Medieval 2 Total War and getting into an argument with the Byzantine.

So, first thought, if we're going for a Warhammer-ified Byzantine, that means that they are a surviving splinter of the old Reman Empire. And if we take out actual historical influence at heart, that means that where the Byzantine eventually fell to the Ottoman Empire, this faction would be in a constant feud with the Chaos Dwarfs, who are the closest analogue to the Otts. Hmm... I can work with this!

***

1. Faction Name and Identity

• Name: Known as the "Aurean Empire" or "Empire of Sun and Stone," referencing their rich heritage and resilience.
  
  
• Capital: A fortified city, perhaps Ourescia, known for its opulent architecture, domed temples, and intricate mosaics, reminiscent of Constantinople.
  
  
• Emperor/Autocrat: The faction is ruled by an Autokrator (a title similar to "Emperor"), considered a semi-divine guardian of order and faith against the encroaching forces of Chaos.

2. Culture and Society

• Martial and Religious Zeal: Like Kislev, this faction has developed a zealous culture around defending against the darkness of the Dark Lands. Their faith is central, possibly oriented around worship of a saint-like figure, derived from ancient Reman practices, who ascended to protect them.
  
  
• The Bulwark of the South: Furthering the Kislev comparison, where Kislev is the bulwark that holds back the tide of Chaos coming from the wastes, The Aurean Empire is the bulwark that stems the tide of Chaos Dwarfs and greenskins that try to enter from the south, from the Badlands and the Darklands. The Aurean Empire hold this title with a sense of pride, they have survived centuries of holding back the worst that could come from the south-east.
  
  
• Legacy of the Reman Empire: They view themselves as the last true inheritors of Reman culture, preserving knowledge, art, and martial traditions that have decayed elsewhere.
  
  
• Ecclesiastic Bureaucracy: A significant part of their administration involves the Divine Synod—a council of clergy-scholars who interpret ancient texts, shaping the law and morality of the realm.

3. Military and Strategy

• Heavily Armored Cataphracts: Their armies would emphasize heavily armored cavalry, akin to the cataphracts, with lance and mace, designed to withstand and counter the shock of Chaos Dwarfs and greenskin hordes.
  
  
• Pike and Archer Infantry: Their infantry would consist of disciplined pikemen and archers, trained in defensive tactics to create unyielding phalanxes.
  
  
• Magical Engineers: Their engineers, remnants of ancient Reman ingenuity, use blessed flame weapons and possibly even enchanted oil that burns in cursed black flames, a counter to the Dawi-Zharr’s own weapons of war.
  
  
• Bombards: While they are very firmly traditional, unlike the Bretonnians they do not consider gunpowder to be a taboo, but such weapons are extremely limited, to the point that most of their bombards are placed on their city and fortress walls for defence, with a small number of grand bombards being brought to the field on only the most dire of occasions. These bombards would be made of bronze.

4. Magic and Religion

• Faith-based Magic: The priest-mages, or Hieronoduli, channel their divine magic through relics and holy texts, creating powerful defensive and healing spells.
  
  
• Reliquaries and Icons: Their armies carry holy relics into battle, believed to be imbued with the spirits of saints or ancient heroes. These relics serve both as moral inspiration and magical protection, creating sanctified zones that repel Chaos.
  
  
• Prophetic Tradition: The Empire has soothsayers and oracles, who interpret dreams and visions as divine messages, guiding military campaigns or fortifying the populace’s faith in times of crisis.

5. Diplomacy and Allies

• Respected but Isolated: Although respected for their resilience, this faction’s geographical isolation makes alliances with the Empire or other Old World states difficult. They may have tentative relations with Tilea and border princes but are often self-reliant.
  
  
• The Struggle for Resources: As they are constantly under siege, they might lack the wealth of the northern nations, relying on old fortifications and centuries-old military tradition, with mercenaries filling gaps where needed.

6. Enemies

• Chaos Dwarfs (Dawi-Zharr): Their greatest and most enduring threat. The Aurean Empire would clash frequently with Chaos Dwarfs over territory, resources, and ideological hatred, viewing them as perversions of the natural world.
  
  
• Goblinoids and Beastmen: The Badlands teem with greenskins, beastmen, and other corrupted beings, ensuring constant skirmishes at the empire’s borders.
  
  
• Skaven Intrusions: A lurking threat under the capital’s catacombs, kept at bay by the vigilant, sewer-guard known as the Vigil Obscura.

Despite the name, I actually picture the Aurean Empire to be an empire in name only, time and constant clashes with the Dawi-Zhaar have slowly worn them down to the point that they have only a handful of fortresses, their capital city and a few towns and farms left to their name.

Geographically, I would envision that they are at the south-eastern edge of the Border Princes' borders, but since they are based on the Byzantine, their capital of Ourescia needs to be a harbour city, so I'm not fully certain of that placement. Somebody better learned of Warhammer Fantasy's geography can probably do a better job of giving a specific point where such a faction could be based. Heck, feel free to put a circle on an official map saying "the city of Ourescia would be perfect here!".

***

So, what do ya'll think of this notion? Could it feasibly work? Is this all a waste of time? What would you do differently with the same task of creating a Warhammer Byzantine Empire?

Let me know. Even if it is just to mock me for having too much time on my hands.

Peace!

A nice selection of ideas... I've been working on a Roman-themed retcon for Tilea (because I can't stand the fractious, mercenary-oriented Renaissanc Italian-themed lore GW made up for them way back in 4th and 5th Edition)... perhaps we could marry these two ideas together somehow to create a 'Last Roman' (or in this case 'Last Reman') themed army?

Also, I would have thought the Byzantines would have had more spearmen than pikemen (which are more of an Estalian thing with their Conquistadors and Tercios)... unless you're focusing on more Medieval Byzantines (up to the fall of Constantinople) rather than more Dark Age-themed eras prior to 1000?

 

[J.Logan]

Also, I would have thought the Byzantines would have had more spearmen than pikemen (which are more of an Estalian thing with their Conquistadors and Tercios)... unless you're focusing on more Medieval Byzantines (up to the fall of Constantinople) rather than more Dark Age-themed eras prior to 1000?

Yup, I had the medieval Byzantine in mind, the Idea that they've been worn down to just their Constantinople and a few towns, farms and forts being the implication that they are only barely holding back their own end - no doubt it was at the beginning of the End Times that the Chaos Dwarfs finally broke them utterly.

That, and the Reman Empire was a long time ago in Warhammer's history (between 1500 to 2000 years depending on the source), so it made more sense to me to go medieval era Byzantine, while also trying to avoid being too Bretonnian about the medieval-ness.

I've been working on a Roman-themed retcon for Tilea (because I can't stand the fractious, mercenary-oriented Renaissanc Italian-themed lore GW made up for them way back in 4th and 5th Edition)

If mine memory serves, there is actually a city in Tilea where they still have their standing army using Reman Empire and and armour, because it's being lead by a Reman fanboy

perhaps we could marry these two ideas together somehow to create a 'Last Roman' (or in this case 'Last Reman') themed army?

By all means. I consider this thought experiment open source, if anybody wants to use anything about it they are welcome to.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

If mine memory serves, there is actually a city in Tilea where they still have their standing army using Reman Empire and and armour, because it's being lead by a Reman fanboy

Very true, there is Lorenzo Lupo and Luccini: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Lorenzo_Lupo

But I'd rather just see the whole Italian theme completely removed and replaced with a what-if Rome idea, complete with Roman place names and Roman-themed characters... principally because in the GW lore all Tilea does is parody real-life Renaissance Italy's backstabbing and squabbling as an attempt at humour, which makes me wonder as to how it could survive in the turbulent world of Warhammer. By contrast a Roman theme would at least give a unifying aesthetic and some semblance of unity in-lore, a unique playstyle to separate it from, say, Estalia, and to be honest just looks and sounds more serious and competent.

By all means. I consider this thought experiment open source, if anybody wants to use anything about it they are welcome to.

Certainly I'd like to try and fold in some Byzantine ideas from your project.

My original draft of the Tilean army list featured just Republican and Early Imperial Roman units and some stock Greco-Roman mythological units, but later I incorporated some Late Roman artwork too to promote alternative aesthetics. Most recently I thought it would bring out more character for the army if I introduced Renaissance tech and some Da Vinci-style inventions to it to reflect the scenario of what if Da Vinci was a Roman engineer rather than an Italian eccentric and combined his knowhow with Roman discipline and engineering prowess. Thus I think to include some Byzantine themes and aesthetics as well would help link the Roman and Da Vinci aspects together to create lots of potential for different themed armies and a general summary of the evolution of Rome, which would be a good starting point as a way to revise the Tilean army's lore and background.

This was totally not at all a brain worm that came about from playing Medieval 2 Total War and getting into an argument with the Byzantine.

As an aside, another Medieval 2 fan! Who's your favourite faction? Are you also into Rome: Total War which used the same engine?

Who were you playing as in campaign when you ended up fighting the Byzantines?

 

[J.Logan]

in the GW lore all Tilea does is parody real-life Renaissance Italy's backstabbing and squabbling as an attempt at humour,

I consider that to be partially propaganda. Like, yeah, the squabbling city-states do exist, but like you said, they can't realistically survive in this setting if it's half as bad as it's made it to be. But other nations like the Empire would love to make it sound far worse than it actually is to big themselves up; 'The empire might be a herd of cats struggling to work together, but at least we aren't Tilea and actively stabbing each other in the back for the most petty reasons'.

But yeah, a proper unified Roman vibe sounds good and would definitely set them apart from their neighbours.

As an aside, another Medieval 2 fan! Who's your favourite faction? Are you also into Rome: Total War which used the same engine?

Who were you playing as in campaign when you ended up fighting the Byzantines?

Being honest it was the first time I'd played it in a long time, usually if it's not Total Warhammer it is Shogun 2 that I'm playing (and even then it's usually Fall of the Samurai, I don't think I've ever finished the base game campaign , actually planning to start and play one through to completion through)

Not ever played Rome, though I am very tempted to grab the remastered version at some point. Heard plenty of good things about Rome, including the recruitment actually coming from the population.

As for who I was playing? Holy Roman Empire. I was torn between them and Venice, and picked the HRE because zweihanders... And completely forgot about the 2-handed bug. Wanted to avoid playing England because I had just come off if the Britannia campaign.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Being honest it was the first time I'd played it in a long time, usually if it's not Total Warhammer it is Shogun 2 that I'm playing (and even then it's usually Fall of the Samurai, I don't think I've ever finished the base game campaign , actually planning to start and play one through to completion through)

Interesting... I've heard a lot about Shogun 2 being the one Total War game that everyone raves about, but personally I can't see why... principally because, being a Samurai 'civil war' setting, from what I can see, it has pretty much zero replay value - once you've played one Clan, surely you've played them all?

Not ever played Rome, though I am very tempted to grab the remastered version at some point. Heard plenty of good things about Rome, including the recruitment actually coming from the population.

Rome 1 is great, and was the first real game-changer title after Shogun 1 (the very first Total War game) in that it introduced the superior engine at the time that would be inherited by Medieval 2 and I think Shogun 2 (before Napoleon introduced an even better one I think), one of the enduringly best soundtracks of the series and a load of vastly different factions with completely different playstyles. Admittedly it still has its flaws (Ancient Germans being able to form phalanxes because the shieldwall ability wasn't yet designed? Bronze Age Egyptians in the Iron Age?) but I have enjoyed playing many happy hours on it. Some people were not happy about the Remastered version because it didn't do enough to satisfy them, but it looks good to me - updated graphics, all factions playable in the campaign I think, a fair few factions getting new unique campaign intros. I would certainly say grab the remastered version and have fun campaigning across the Ancient World!

I've not played Rome II, but I've been soured by it calling the British faction that owns all of the east of England the Iceni 'cos Boudica (The Iceni only controlled Norfolk for Pete's sake... if any one tribe deserved to be the representative of the Britons it'd be the Catuvellauni... the absolute top dog tribe at the time of the Claudian invasion that was in the process of conquering or allying with the others... and because Caratacus was a vastly superior commander than Boudicca).

As for who I was playing? Holy Roman Empire. I was torn between them and Venice, and picked the HRE because zweihanders... And completely forgot about the 2-handed bug. Wanted to avoid playing England because I had just come off if the Britannia campaign.

The HRE eh? I enjoyed wrecking them as the Danes in an as-Viking-as-I-can-possibly-get campaign

Ah, the Britannia Campaign... really enjoying playing that one as Wales. An exercise of churning out as many Merionydd Spearmen and Saethwyr as possible, allying with the Baron's Alliance (only for them to stab you in the back and turn into England again as soon as the 'old' England is defeated, meaning you have to defeat them too later) and now invading Ireland and proclaiming the superiority of the Brythonic Celtic race

The 2-handed bug... is that to do with 2-handed weapon units having especially weak armour? Because I can attest to that playing as both Danes and Welsh . Units like Rhyfelwyr certainly need to be accompanied by a lot of better-armoured spearman units to survive because they definitely die the quickest.

 

[J.Logan]

introduced the superior engine at the time that would be inherited by Medieval 2 and I think Shogun 2 (before Napoleon introduced an even better one I think)

No... Medieval 2, then Empire came along with the Battlescape Engine (which was made specifically because of the emphasised use of gunpowder units of that time period) then Napoleon, then Shogun 2, and every Total War since. The engine has its strengths, but also has weaknesses.

Interesting... I've heard a lot about Shogun 2 being the one Total War game that everyone raves about, but personally I can't see why... principally because, being a Samurai 'civil war' setting, from what I can see, it has pretty much zero replay value - once you've played one Clan, surely you've played them all?

There is some variety, in that certain clans have better versions of x-unit and the like, but yea, by and large, the different clans share a very similar roster, which to be fair, does help the balance somewhat. There's also the choices that can be made; convert to Christianity and get good trade with the Europeans and their muskets?

The Fall of the Samurai campaign especially suffers from the mirror match issue, though again certain choices can alter the gameplay. If you want to play hard mode, try to go for a strict traditional run. That scene at the end of "The Last Samurai" where they're charging the guns and getting cut down? Now you can be the one in command of the samurai charging the guns. Can you win? (hint: not by charging headfirst unless you have a LOT more men to spend). If you want to play masochist difficulty; do a traditional run while also declaring yourself a third faction; that way you get to have zero allies as both the Shogunate and the Emperor loyalists both think you are an utter twot that needs to be erased.

I've not played Rome II, but I've been soured by it calling the British faction that owns all of the east of England the Iceni 'cos Boudica (The Iceni only controlled Norfolk for Pete's sake... if any one tribe deserved to be the representative of the Britons it'd be the Catuvellauni... the absolute top dog tribe at the time of the Claudian invasion that was in the process of conquering or allying with the others... and because Caratacus was a vastly superior commander than Boudicca).

I've not played Rome 2 either, I still remember the footage of its release state and am somewhat haunted by such moments as the glorious sand-shark (a ship just gliding beneath desert sands, mast looking like a shark's fin). I hear its in a far better state now, so maybe I'll actually give it a try. Attila, my issue was that it felt unnessecary, we just had Rome 2 after all, so why do another game featuring the Romans quite heavily? Same issue I had with Napoleon on release. But for the Lord of the Rings mod (Dawnless Days), I'll grab it.

The 2-handed bug... is that to do with 2-handed weapon units having especially weak armour?

My understanding is that it comes from an animation issue. Their attack animation constantly gets interrupted by the weaker one-handed animations they are competing against. So while two-handers hit hard, they are barely getting their hits in because more often than not, each time they attack, the animation gets interrupted, so they start the animation again after their flinch, only to get interrupted, flinch, and then start the animation anew again. It was... painful, realising that my badass zweihanders were functionally getting shivved by peasants who should have been cut down like wheat.