AoS Second Edition

[Killer Angel]

Why "maybe?" It's pretty much definitely. And for what it's worth, the Astrolith Bearer also has its Proud Defiance ability in addition to spell buffing.

Because to forego 3 spells is 9 points, 10 with Slann as General, the Bearer grants 1d3 and you need 12. Not 100% sure and you are nerfing almost the whole potenzial of a Slann and of a bearer.
It's an awful trade, i am leaving almost unused more than 400 pts to have for free 120 poins of terradons

 

[Christopher]

the spell buffing is kinda pointless if all your slann is doing is generate points...

I really don't get why they made point-generation mutually exclusive with casting. It literally stops a slann from doing his one job and it's not like we can use a slann as a good melee fighter or even as some halfway decent ranged artillery. All he really has going for himself is those spells. Admittadly, if the supporting heroes like skinks and such help with this then it might still work. Turn a slann into a summoner as opposed to a caster is fine too I guess.

Right, but I'm saying that, as written currently anyway, the Astrolith Bearer has quite an efficacious role beyond spell buffing in Proud Defiance. And your last sentence seems to me to be crucial to how we're going to build our lists from now on. Turning a Slann into a Summoner as opposed to a caster is probably exactly the design space GW was seeking to create/exploit with this mechanic.

 

[Wazz]

If you have a list where you take most of our ranged beasties have them shooting from objectives in your territory the proud defiance and Slann banking points isn't too bad. Mystic shield isn't what it used to be so my not cook points for a turn or so summon a road block in front of your gunline and then rain magical hell on them once they are close enough for the spells!

 

[Canas]

Right, but I'm saying that, as written currently anyway, the Astrolith Bearer has quite an efficacious role beyond spell buffing in Proud Defiance. And your last sentence seems to me to be crucial to how we're going to build our lists from now on. Turning a Slann into a Summoner as opposed to a caster is probably exactly the design space GW was seeking to create/exploit with this mechanic.

mm, ah welll, it heavily depends on any possible interactions. If this is all the point generation we're going to get then it'l be well.. mediocre at best. If our EoTG and various skink heroes can actually interact with it and fairly significantly increase the point generation it might actually be worthwhile. As it stands the only "viable" approach I can think of is just taking a bastiladon and stegaon heavy army like @Wazz mentioned so they can stand on objectives and bombard stuff while the slann does nothing but just summon hordes of skinks which just stand in the way of your opponent...

Also, why the hell is there no benefit to having 2 slanns or 2 astrolith bearers. Diminishig returns would be fine, but really, no benefit whatsoever?

Also minor sidenote; that list is weird. 3 terradons is just as expensive as a skink starpriest.. I wouldn't say those two are exactly similar in value. Plus where's saurus warriors. Based on that list they're deemed more expensive than 3 terradons which unless we're going to summon 20+ of em seems rather a stretch as well...That list raises more questions than it anwsers.

 

[Wazz]

I could see 20 warriors be a thing only bc they would have at least one of their unit buffs(unless they get a change) the starpriest for 12 is kinda cool bc you can set him up for clutch arcane vassal. I was that guy and squinted and saw the Skink Priest was 12 as well.

 

[Ecozh]

View attachment 44008
This list is now in the post. Very vage and not sure I like the points. kinda steep...

Im wondering if this is 10% of the new points value.
120 for a starpriest
60 for a razordon
60 for handlers
120 for Terradons

 

[claymore36]

The facebook team said the EOTG is getting a rule change to its summoning ability. Not sure what the change will be but it sounds like it will provide another means of generating points.

 

[Killer Angel]

Thinking on it, probably it's not that bad.

I don't see this kind of summoning as a strong option, (imo you cannot base your tactic around it), but it's certainly an additional utility for the army.
Let's see.. if our heroes are not killed in the mean time, during the first 4 turns a slann and an astrolith bearer will produce 4+4d3 points (12 on average).
If the Slann doesn't cast a couple of spells in those 4 turns (which may well happens) it means you can summon (in the course of those 4 turns) the equivalent of 18 pts.

nothing game changing, but (for example) you can have 10 free skinks to control an objective or act as screen, and 3 terradons to threaten an objective controlled by the opponent, or a couple of sallies to burn something.
it's just a nice bonus and (from this pov) it should work.

 

[Canas]

Thinking on it, probably it's not that bad.

I don't see this kind of summoning as a strong option, (imo you cannot base your tactic around it), but it's certainly an additional utility for the army.
Let's see.. if our heroes are not killed in the mean time, during the first 4 turns a slann and an astrolith bearer will produce 4+4d3 points (12 on average).
If the Slann doesn't cast a couple of spells in those 4 turns (which may well happens) it means you can summon (in the course of those 4 turns) the equivalent of 18 pts.

nothing game changing, but (for example) you can have 10 free skinks to control an objective or act as screen, and 3 terradons to threaten an objective controlled by the opponent, or a couple of sallies to burn something.
it's just a nice bonus and (from this pov) it should work.

summoning 1 unit of 10 skinks is in the second to last turn is barely a bonus... I mean it's better than nothing obviously, but if that's the "average" extent of summoning it's fairly terrible. Imho it shows one of the biggest issues they seem to be creating. Summoning point generation is so slow that often it ends up being too little too late for what should be a fairly impactfull mechanic..

 

[Crowsfoot]

Thinking on it, probably it's not that bad.

I don't see this kind of summoning as a strong option, (imo you cannot base your tactic around it), but it's certainly an additional utility for the army.
Let's see.. if our heroes are not killed in the mean time, during the first 4 turns a slann and an astrolith bearer will produce 4+4d3 points (12 on average).
If the Slann doesn't cast a couple of spells in those 4 turns (which may well happens) it means you can summon (in the course of those 4 turns) the equivalent of 18 pts.

nothing game changing, but (for example) you can have 10 free skinks to control an objective or act as screen, and 3 terradons to threaten an objective controlled by the opponent, or a couple of sallies to burn something.
it's just a nice bonus and (from this pov) it should work.

In theory if a Slann general with bearer does not cast he can generate 9+1+D3 per turn so you could generate 26 points in 2 turns
Kroak can generate 12+1+D3 possible 32 by turn 2.

Maggotkin max points is 28 for a Great Unclean One so if we have the same structure you could bring in a top tier monster, probably a Carny in turn 2 in theory, or 20 Skinks per turn.

 

[Crowsfoot]

summoning 1 unit of 10 skinks is in the second to last turn is barely a bonus... I mean it's better than nothing obviously, but if that's the "average" extent of summoning it's fairly terrible. Imho it shows one of the biggest issues they seem to be creating. Summoning point generation is so slow that often it ends up being too little too late for what should be a fairly impactfull mechanic..

I don't think it will be that slow but you are giving up a lot to generate the points, I actually think Seraphon can generate points faster than anyone else hence the link to not casting.

I'm not clued up on all factions but Maggotkin can't generate 12 point turn one, 4+D3 is more likely (I could be wrong), therefore the tax for generating points seems fair.

 

[Canas]

I don't think it will be that slow but you are giving up a lot to generate the points, I actually think Seraphon can generate points faster than anyone else hence the link to not casting.

I'm not clued up on all factions but Maggotkin can't generate 12 point turn one (I could be wrong), therefore the tax for generating points seems fair.

Maggotkin can reach 6 + 2D3 from turn 2 onward if their first turn is a bit lucky, if you add in some of the extra mechanics (e.g. the guy on the snail that can plant extra trees, or better yet his battalion) you can get far highter than 12, especially if you then spend your summoning points on more trees. See what I posted here. It is possible to reach a point where you gain enough points per turn to summon an unclean one (addmittadly it takes till turn 5, but still). And that's with just the base-generation and summoning trees, there's no extra hero or battalion helping out yet.

What's more important though is that they generate points by doing what they're going to be doing anyway. Summoning those trees doesn't just generate more points it also gives control over the battlefield as those trees will make your guys faster while hurting your enemies plus they can be used as cover or even to flat out block a choke-point. Even without the generation of summoning points that's beneficial. Similarly a lord of plaques can generate points simply by scoring wounds on an enemy. It's a front-line hero, 'he's going to be punching people regardless.

In our case however we're stopping a slann from doing the one thing they're supposed to be doing. Which is counterintuitive to say the least.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Maggotkin can reach 6 + 2D3 from turn 2 onward if their first turn is a bit lucky, if you add in some of the extra mechanics (e.g. the guy on the snail that can plant extra trees, or better yet his battalion) you can get far highter than 12, especially if you then spend your summoning points on more trees. See what I posted here. It is possible to reach a point where you gain enough points per turn to summon an unclean one (addmittadly it takes till turn 5, but still). And that's with just the base-generation and summoning trees, there's no extra hero or battalion helping out yet.

What's more important though is that they generate points by doing what they're going to be doing anyway. Summoning those trees doesn't just generate more points it also gives control over the battlefield as those trees will make your guys faster while hurting your enemies plus they can be used as cover or even to flat out block a choke-point. Even without the generation of summoning points that's beneficial. Similarly a lord of plaques can generate points simply by scoring wounds on an enemy. It's a front-line hero, 'he's going to be punching people regardless.

In our case however we're stopping a slann from doing the one thing they're supposed to be doing. Which is counterintuitive to say the least.

But by spending points on trees it's taking them long to summon in the good stuff, so a GUO comes in on turn 5, we bring in a Carny (theory) turn 2, turn 3 onwards we cast normally, turn one is almost free points as your usually safe and not engaged anywhere on the board, so your foregoing one turn of offensive spells to bring in a Carny (theory)

 

[Canas]

But by spending points on trees it's taking them long to summon in the good stuff, so a GUO comes in on turn 5, we bring in a Carny (theory) turn 2, turn 3 onwards we cast normally, turn one is almost free points as your usually safe and not engaged anywhere on the board, so your foregoing one turn of offensive spells to bring in a Carny (theory)

Use nurgle's menagerie, you now get a free tree per turn, tada you can now summon a great-unclean one from turn 4 onwards (provided some luck with the D3's). Plus they get to summon a whole bunch of other stuff while working towards it. We would only get to summon 1 carnosaur for that.

with the menagery you ge the following:
turn 1: 4 +d3 = 7, summon 2 gnarlmaw
turn 2: 6 + 3d3 = 15, summon 3 gnarlmaw, 1 points left over
turn 3: 6 + 6d3 = 24, summon 4 gnarlmaws, 1 point left over
turn 4: 6 + 10d3 = 36 summon unclean one, summon 1 gnarlmaw 8 points points left over
turn 5: 6 + 11d3 = 39, summon unclean one, summon gnarlmaw 19 points left over from this turn and the previous one.

Anyway, point being they're not really sacrificing anything to get the unclean one. They're simply using the entirety of their (summoning) mechanics to works towards it, while simultaniously getting benefits along the way. We gain no benefits while building up summoning points and are explicitly sacrificing alternative actions for it. Us sacrificing two full turns of a slann's magic is relativly steep a price to pay given that a slann 'doesn't do anything else.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Anyway, point being they're not really sacrificing anything to get the unclean one. They're simply using the entirety of their (summoning) mechanics to works towards it, while simultaniously getting benefits along the way. We gain no benefits while building up summoning points and are explicitly sacrificing alternative actions for it. Us sacrificing two full turns of a slann's magic is relativly steep a price to pay given that a slann 'doesn't do anything else.

I get what your saying but if we look at it this way,

turn 1: slann generates points 9+1+D3= 13
turn 2: Slann casts 2 spells 3+1+D3=7
turn 3: Slann casts 2 spells 3+1+D3=7

If we have a Priest in our army you can cast Mystic shield or bolt but yes I agree we are giving up something to generate the points but I still think turn1 the slann would only cast shield or starlight etc that would probably not be needed, but again your right we are sacrificing one of our strong points to generate points faster, is that going to be worth the gamble?. Carny turn 2 goes and kills opponents Slimux.

Do the bearers stack?

 

[Burwinkelito]

Do the bearers stack?

No, at least the text doesn't say they can stack,
"you obtain 1 Celestial Conjuration Point if your GENERAL is a SLANN and is on the battlefield, and D3 Celestial Conjuration Points ir there are one OR MORE friendly Astrolith Bearers on the battlefield."

 

[Canas]

I get what your saying but if we look at it this way,

turn 1: slann generates points 9+1+D3= 13
turn 2: Slann casts 2 spells 3+1+D3=7
turn 3: Slann casts 2 spells 3+1+D3=7

If we have a Priest in our army you can cast Mystic shield or bolt but yes I agree we are giving up something to generate the points but I still think turn1 the slann would only cast shield or starlight etc that would probably not be needed, but again your right we are sacrificing one of our strong points to generate points faster, is that going to be worth the gamble?. Carny turn 2 goes and kills opponents Slimux.

Do the bearers stack?

astroliths bearers don't stack.

Ah well I just hope that they've simply given us too litte information and the actual mechanic is far more impressive.

 

[Crowsfoot]

astroliths bearers don't stack.

Ah well I just hope that they've simply given us too litte information and the actual mechanic is far more impressive.

I doubt it

 

[Crowsfoot]

No, at least the text doesn't say they can stack,
"you obtain 1 Celestial Conjuration Point if your GENERAL is a SLANN and is on the battlefield, and D3 Celestial Conjuration Points ir there are one OR MORE friendly Astrolith Bearers on the battlefield."

I suppose that sort of makes sense.

 

[Burwinkelito]

Ah well I just hope that they've simply given us too litte information and the actual mechanic is far more impressive.

Your hope will lead you to great disappointment...... Games Workshop left their intentions very clear on the first comical scene of this video