AoS Second Edition

[Xasto]

That's still merely using them as bodies though and still means the vast majority of his tactic relies on his 3 characters.

They're not ''mere bodies'' when the whole point of his list is to buff them with command points and spell buffs. They're the damage dealers.

 

[Aginor]

Why would they be in any way shape or form be mediocre/weak?

People expected mortal wounds (despite the ward save) and especially mass shooting to be their death, quickly dealing those seven wounds to them.
And that's correct, so playing them you have to beat shooting. If I read that correctly, in the tournament that player did it by hiding the characters behind the huge scenery pieces and putting his horde stuff into melee.

Also noteworthy: since melee alpha is such a huge thing right now his list was kind of a hard-counter to the 'meta', there weren't many shooting lists.

 

[Aginor]

Where, on TGA? Everywhere i've looked, from podcasts to forums, the consensus was that each Nighthaunt named character was really powerful, so no surprise for me here. I've personally bought all 3, did not hesitate and I don't regret it, they perform very well.

Yes, mainly on TGA and reddit. The fear was that shooting armies or armies dealing mortal wounds at range would quickly deal those seven wounds and that's it.
And in an open field that might actually happen.

 

[Xasto]

Yes, mainly on TGA and reddit. The fear was that shooting armies or armies dealing mortal wounds at range would quickly deal those seven wounds and that's it.
And in an open field that might actually happen.

I see. Well it goes without saying that with proper placement they can do very well! Would have loved to see the match!

 

[Aginor]

I see. Well it goes without saying that with proper placement they can do very well! Would have loved to see the match!

Me too. People say Ben is a great sportsman as well, all of them who posted somewhere had only positive things to say despite getting tabled.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Just to get back to a somewhat sane discussion:
Did anyone of you follow the Blackout event, on social media or so?

Seems like there was an almost healthy looking amount of armies from all grand alliances (except Destruction) winning games in that tournament.

Only three Seraphon players tried, a bit surprisingly, since I do think we can compete quite well right now, and only one of them reached the top50.
Probably some Seraphon players wanted to play Kroak and/or EotG spam, copying @darren watson 's list, but were caught by the Kroak nerf during preparation so they switched to something else.

Ironjawz (2x) and Bonesplitterz made it into the top50. At least something.

The top20 spots are a decent mix of Chaos (8), Order(8) and Death(4) though, with a lot more Death in the 20-40 places.
Nighthaunt won the tournament, the best Destruction player is an Ironjawz guy at #24.

Here are the rest of the results:

Well I must say I’m disappointed to see there were only 2 Fyreslayers players yet so many people played Sylvaneth filth. I really expected better from the wargaming population to play the proper armies, but I’m pleased to see the Idoneth doing well. Also nice to see the Sigmarines are largely bringing up the rear.

 

[Canas]

They're not ''mere bodies'' when the whole point of his list is to buff them with command points and spell buffs. They're the damage dealers.

If that is his approach then he's rather lacking in buffs, or I'm missing something.. the only one that I see that's nice and stackable to turn a horde into something monstrous is the knight's of shrouds' command ability. And even then, his named characters are capable enough in melee that stacking the buff on them could quickly be just as devestating.

Also when I say "bodies" I didn't mean they're cannonfodder, it's not like the rest of his army consists of hardmless zombies. They have decent stats and will be a pain for most enemies to deal with. What I meant is that he doesn't depend on his battleline to be anything beyond "bodies", they're there because he needs something to fill out his army. His characters can't be everywhere at once. But they're basicly completly replaceable as far as his strategy is concerned. They could essentially be replaced by any given nighthaunt unit (provided it fits in terms of points) and it wouldn't change all that much. Similarly, if they get wiped out it's mostly a loss cuz half is army is wiped out, not because he lost a key-component and now has to adapt his strategy.

Yes, mainly on TGA and reddit. The fear was that shooting armies or armies dealing mortal wounds at range would quickly deal those seven wounds and that's it.
And in an open field that might actually happen.

meh, with rend protection & the look out rule & the copious amounts of healing nighthaunt/undeath has shootingshouldn't be too much of an issue. The only real threat is mortal wounds, but those tend to come from spells & nighthaunt has plenty of unbinding options. Outside of a lot of luck, or lists tailormade for this purpose, preferably alongside "bad" battlefields for protection, I wouldn't be too worried about them getting sniped that easily.​

 

[Xasto]

If that is his approach then he's rather lacking in buffs, or I'm missing something.. the only one that I see that's nice and stackable to turn a horde into something monstrous is the knight's of shrouds' command ability. And even then, his named characters are capable enough in melee that stacking the buff on them could quickly be just as devestating.

You're missing the rerolls 1 to hit from the Spirit torment, the +1 to wound from the Guardian of souls, and then the Shademist spell, which makes them -1 to wound for the enemy. Also, if the Grimghasts are attacking a unit with 5 or more models, they just reroll all failed hits. Lastly there's the Lady Olynder spell, which gives you +1 to hit on a targetted enemy unit. (And they get -1 to hit) You're left with 30 man unit that does 2 attacks (3, or 4, or 5 with stackable CP's), 4+ (potentially 3+) rerolling 1's (potentially all failed), 2+, -1 rend 1 dmg. And they have a 4+ unrendable save and -1 to hit and to wound. And then the Guardian of Souls can bring back d6. These guys are a shredding machine and they don't even need all of those buffs to be so.

Also when I say "bodies" I didn't mean they're cannonfodder, it's not like the rest of his army consists of hardmless zombies. They have decent stats and will be a pain for most enemies to deal with. What I meant is that he doesn't depend on his battleline to be anything beyond "bodies", they're there because he needs something to fill out his army. His characters can't be everywhere at once. But they're basicly completly replaceable as far as his strategy is concerned. They could essentially be replaced by any given nighthaunt unit (provided it fits in terms of points) and it wouldn't change all that much. Similarly, if they get wiped out it's mostly a loss cuz half is army is wiped out, not because he lost a key-component and now has to adapt his strategy.

​

In this list the Grimghast Reapers are clearly not ''filling out'' his army, they're a core part of the plan. Myrmourn Banshees and Spirit Hosts would, in this case, be the filling out bodies you're talking about.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Also nice to see the Sigmarines are largely bringing up the rear.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

View attachment 46063

I had a feeling you would like that part and ignore my anti-Sylvaneth campaign...

 

[Canas]

You're missing the rerolls 1 to hit from the Spirit torment, the +1 to wound from the Guardian of souls, and then the Shademist spell, which makes them -1 to wound for the enemy. Also, if the Grimghasts are attacking a unit with 5 or more models, they just reroll all failed hits. Lastly there's the Lady Olynder spell, which gives you +1 to hit on a targetted enemy unit. (And they get -1 to hit) You're left with 30 man unit that does 2 attacks (3, or 4, or 5 with stackable CP's), 4+ (potentially 3+) rerolling 1's (potentially all failed), 2+, -1 rend 1 dmg. And they have a 4+ unrendable save and -1 to hit and to wound. And then the Guardian of Souls can bring back d6. These guys are a shredding machine and they don't even need all of those buffs to be so.


In this list the Grimghast Reapers are clearly not ''filling out'' his army, they're a core part of the plan. Myrmourn Banshees and Spirit Hosts would, in this case, be the filling out bodies you're talking about.

My point is that you can do that with 90% of the nighthaunt roster, including the named characters. The only buff that really snowballs more on them than on, some of, the others is the extra attack due to them having the second-largest unit size. And even then it's going to rely on quite a lot of em getting into combat. Unless they're somehow increadibly easy to get the entire horde into combat there doesn't appear to be much of a reason, beyond their bodycount, for fielding them over say bladegheists. Nor does it look like losing them cripples the army in the same way that losing your skeletons in one of those deathrattle lists that make the skeletons do 400+ attacks appears to cripple those list.

edit; just looked up their base sizes. Apparently they have the same base as our saurus warriors which combined with their ability to fly makes them one of the few horde-units where you can actually get the entire unit into combat. That does give them a fairly significant advantage in terms of scaling especially with those bonus attacks. Though even then I'd question how Reliant the tactic is on them given the various advantages the other options have, such as lesser reliance on the buffs or the mortal wounds on 6+ half the other nighthaunt have. They still appear increadibly replaceable.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I had a feeling you would like that part and ignore my anti-Sylvaneth campaign...

Hahaha... that is precisely what I did!

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Hahaha... that is precisely what I did!

Ah, but the trick is that you need to do both - join me in my hate for the abominable children of the Queen Who Should Be Dead! They’re as bad as Sigmarines!

 

[Aginor]

Ah, but the trick is that you need to do both - join me in my hate for the abominable children of the Queen Who Should Be Dead! They’re as bad as Sigmarines!

No they are not. Come on, why the need to hate Branchwyches, Branchwraiths, Dryads, Treelords, or Kurnoth Hunters? Those are nice models and they have some very nice rules.
The Alarielle model is beautiful, one of the best models of AoS. And if she was named Elleirala the Queen of Life you probably wouldn't mind her. Come on. The only thing I mildly dislike about the faction are the Spite-Revenant/Tree-Revenant models. And Drycha, who is....weird. And even those can look cool if you paint them nicely.
I just don't get the hate, and they are far from comparable to Stormcast Eternals in any meaningful way.

 

[Lezlor]

Yeah, I don’t mind them either. I’d like to do a 2k list based on the wardens of the everqueen book - just need to find someone with a nurgle army. Don’t give in to hate.

 

[Xasto]

Though even then I'd question how Reliant the tactic is on them given the various advantages the other options have, such as lesser reliance on the buffs or the mortal wounds on 6+ half the other nighthaunt have. They still appear increadibly replaceable.

I'm pretty sure the tactic is ''reliable'' if you can place first in a tournament by tabling all 5 of your opponents.

I'm sorry, by half the other Nighthaunts, do you mean Hexwraiths and Spirit Hosts? Because apart from heroes, they're the only 2 units that have the Frightful touch rule. I don't see achieving this kind of list with Hexwraiths or Spirit Hosts, much less on a single hero, so I don't see how they're replaceable in that manner. Also can you tell me which Nighthaunt units have a lesser reliance on the buffs? Because the more Elite stuff that you could try to compare are probably the Bladegheist Revenants, and they're 2/3+/3+/-1/1, which isn't that much better, even considering their special abilities. and then they cost a lot more for a max of 20 models.

I'd say this can be achievable with Chainrasp Hordes, but then again you're losing the -1 rend, which is a lot.

My point is that you can do that with 90% of the nighthaunt roster, including the named characters.

Not this effectively, no. Atleast not IMO.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Ah, but the trick is that you need to do both - join me in my hate for the abominable children of the Queen Who Should Be Dead! They’re as bad as Sigmarines!

My wife plays Wood Elves and I actually really like the army. You won't find support against them from me. They are not SCE-like at all.

 

[Xasto]

My girlfriend has started amassing a Sylvaneth - Wanderers force for Age of Sigmar, a Wood Elves army of old. Really like the Sylvaneth models, they're so full of life (pun intended)!

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

No they are not. Come on, why the need to hate Branchwyches, Branchwraiths, Dryads, Treelords, or Kurnoth Hunters? Those are nice models and they have some very nice rules.
The Alarielle model is beautiful, one of the best models of AoS. And if she was named Elleirala the Queen of Life you probably wouldn't mind her. Come on. The only thing I mildly dislike about the faction are the Spite-Revenant/Tree-Revenant models. And Drycha, who is....weird. And even those can look cool if you paint them nicely.
I just don't get the hate, and they are far from comparable to Stormcast Eternals in any meaningful way.

Yeah, I don’t mind them either. I’d like to do a 2k list based on the wardens of the everqueen book - just need to find someone with a nurgle army. Don’t give in to hate.

My wife plays Wood Elves and I actually really like the army. You won't find support against them from me. They are not SCE-like at all.

My girlfriend has started amassing a Sylvaneth - Wanderers force for Age of Sigmar, a Wood Elves army of old. Really like the Sylvaneth models, they're so full of life (pun intended)!

First of all, it isn’t particularly the Dryads, Branchwraiths, Branchwyches, Treemen or Kurnoths I dislike so much - Dryads, Branchwraiths and Treemen are Wood Elf models, which I do like, while Branchwyches are based on Dryads and Kurnoths are based on Treemen - indeed they would make good Tree Kin proxies. As @Aginor says it is more the Revenants and Drycha I really don’t like. They not only look hideous, but their mutated Tree-Elf look is pretty inconsistent with the image of the rest of the army. In fact in my view they would look better as part of a dark, Chaos version of the Sylvaneth, a bit like the Satyrs in Warcraft III are twisted parodies of the Night Elves, as mutated troops are Chaos’ speciality, not Order.

Also I dislike Alarielle, it is true. The beetle is fine, in fact if the beetle was on its own I would be pretty interested in owning one myself if it wasn’t so expensive, but the fact that Alarielle is there too puts me off. The main reasons for this are that firstly in my view Alarielle was a pretty bland, boring character in Fantasy, especially as she only got a profile and miniature (and not a very nice miniature at that) during 8th Edition. Then when AoS came along, GW had the perfect opportunity to resurrect some of the best characters in Fantasy in brand new, awe-inspiring plastic forms - true legends of Warhammer that have been around for donkeys’ years, such as Kroak, Gor-Rok, Chakax, Ungrim Ironfist, Thorgrim Grudgebearer, Skarsnik, Settra, Queek Headtaker... the list of truly badass characters was endless, yet they instead chose to resurrect her of all characters. Secondly, it doesn’t make sense that she becomes queen of the forest spirits if you look at everything pre-End Times. Alarielle was queen of the High Elves, in fact Everqueen is the title of the High Elves’ Queen, and yet she suddenly abandons her kin, indeed she abandons all Elves in general, and she goes to rule the Forest Spirits. Would she do this? Not likely. It would have been more likely that she had been a queen of the Light Elves, i.e. Tyrion and Teclis’ High Elf Remnants. The true queen of the Wood Elves in Fantasy was Ariel, wife of Orion, who seems like the obvious choice for the Goddess of Life in comparison.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

First of all, it isn’t particularly the Dryads, Branchwraiths, Branchwyches, Treemen or Kurnoths I dislike so much - Dryads, Branchwraiths and Treemen are Wood Elf models, which I do like, while Branchwyches are based on Dryads and Kurnoths are based on Treemen - indeed they would make good Tree Kin proxies. As @Aginor says it is more the Revenants and Drycha I really don’t like. They not only look hideous, but their mutated Tree-Elf look is pretty inconsistent with the image of the rest of the army. In fact in my view they would look better as part of a dark, Chaos version of the Sylvaneth, a bit like the Satyrs in Warcraft III are twisted parodies of the Night Elves, as mutated troops are Chaos’ speciality, not Order.

Also I dislike Alarielle, it is true. The beetle is fine, in fact if the beetle was on its own I would be pretty interested in owning one myself if it wasn’t so expensive, but the fact that Alarielle is there too puts me off. The main reasons for this are that firstly in my view Alarielle was a pretty bland, boring character in Fantasy, especially as she only got a profile and miniature (and not a very nice miniature at that) during 8th Edition. Then when AoS came along, GW had the perfect opportunity to resurrect some of the best characters in Fantasy in brand new, awe-inspiring plastic forms - true legends of Warhammer that have been around for donkeys’ years, such as Kroak, Gor-Rok, Chakax, Ungrim Ironfist, Thorgrim Grudgebearer, Skarsnik, Settra, Queek Headtaker... the list of truly badass characters was endless, yet they instead chose to resurrect her of all characters. Secondly, it doesn’t make sense that she becomes queen of the forest spirits if you look at everything pre-End Times. Alarielle was queen of the High Elves, in fact Everqueen is the title of the High Elves’ Queen, and yet she suddenly abandons her kin, indeed she abandons all Elves in general, and she goes to rule the Forest Spirits. Would she do this? Not likely. It would have been more likely that she had been a queen of the Light Elves, i.e. Tyrion and Teclis’ High Elf Remnants. The true queen of the Wood Elves in Fantasy was Ariel, wife of Orion, who seems like the obvious choice for the Goddess of Life in comparison.

Then (surprisingly) we are actually in complete agreement. I'm only a fan of the WFB Wood Elves and their models. I don't really care for any of the new stuff. Your point on Alarielle also rings true. It's a nice model, but doesn't quite fit with the rest of it. Of course, even their new stuff is magnitudes better than SCE (although that isn't saying very much).