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Discussion Choosing a New Name (aka I do not like the name Seraphon)

Warden
Slann

Warden

Tenth Spawning
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So one of the biggest reasons I do not like the AOS lore is the new name GW chose for the Lizardmen to use in the age of copyright. While I understand that "Lizardmen" is too generic to fulfill this role, I think the name Seraphon is a bit too bland for my tastes, and does nothing to invoke the rich Mesoamerican lore that the Lizardmen of Warhammer Fantasy were built upon.

So what new name could we use?

First, the two names we already have.

Lizardmen (8th-edition WHF and previous)
  • Captures what the first human explorers to the isles of Lustria would have called these beings ("hey look over there Explorer Bob, that thing over their has scales like a lizard but walks like a man! It's a lizard-man!)
  • Pro: Easy to recognize what they are in our own language, nice and generic
  • Pro: easy to say and spell
  • Con: Too simple for GW to copyright
  • Con?: Potentially construed as gender specific (though the lizard"men" are purported to be genderless as they arise from spawning pools, opening up a completely different can-of-worms)

Seraphon (8th-edition WHF and previous)
  • Derived from seraph or plural seraphim, biblical angels with six wings (one on face), potentially up to three heads, some symbolism linking them to fire and an un-extinquisible light
  • Pro: unique name, easy for GW to copyright as the name isn't used by anyone else
  • Pro: Suites the new lore of the star-lizardmen, as being "demons of order," filled with heavenly magic and celestial energy.
  • Neutral: relatively easy to spell an say, except for some of the old beards of the hobby
  • Neutral: used to be the name of Malekith's (he was the dark elf king) dragon steed. No relation.
  • Con: calls to mind angelic or fire imagery, not lizards and scales.
  • Con: No relation to old Mesoamerican lore or fluff
This last reason is my own biggest sticking point. In both cases however, neither of these names would have been chosen by the Lizardmen/Seraphon themselves. These are both names that they have been given by outsiders to their own civilization.



So what could the Lizardmen/Seraphon actually call themselves? I would first look to the mighty Lustriapedia for this humble entry written by our own @Scalenex :

[the] First: The self-referential term for Lizardmen. “First” is short form for “First Children of the Old Ones”, collectively referring to Slann, Sauri, Kroxigor, and Skinks.



So what other options are there? Here are a few I just came up with:


Kukulkani
  • Name is derived from the Mayan god Kulkulkan, worshipped by the people of the Yucatan. Name means “feathered Serpent.”
  • Pro: Feathered Serpent imagery calls to mind both scales and feathers, suites the dino-riding Lizardmen really well
  • Pro: Lore friendly and inspired by Mesoamerican culture
  • Neutral: relatively easy to say out loud, not much harder than Seraphon in my opinion.
  • Dealbreaker: name is already copyrighted by CoolMiniOrNot, and is used by their space Mayans in the game Dark Age. Otherwise this name would have worked perfectly
Kukulkani-Mock-Up-warband.png

Also the Mayan God Kulkulkan, from Chichen Itza:

mayan god kulkulkna.jpg

Quetzalcoatli
  • Name is derived from the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl, also means “feathered Serpent.”
  • Pro: Feathered Serpent imagery calls to mind both scales and feathers, suites the dino-riding Lizardmen really well
  • Pro: Lore friendly and inspired by Mesoamerican culture. The connection could also be made that the Lizardmen see Sigmar as a new “Quetzalcoatl” figure, as a hero reborn from legend.
  • Pro: doesn’t look like it is copyrighted by anybody
  • Con: Not really easy to say, and is a bit more wordy than the first option.
Aztec God Quetzalcoatl:
220px-Quetzalcoatl_svg.png

[the] Itza
  • Name is derived from the Mayan tribe of the same name. Looks like it means “enchanted waters” in Mayan.
  • Pro: Inspired by Mesoamerican culture.
  • Pro: also name for the Lizardmen first city, as in it means “the first” in the old Lizardmen language. Seems very appropriate to be co-opted as the name the Lizardmen might actually call themselves in their own language.
  • Pro: Easy to say (its two syllables)
  • Con: While it isn’t necessarily copyrighted by anybody, it is the name of an actual group of people living on planet earth as we speak, and for that reason probably won’t work as the name of a flagship race of AOS.
Map of maximal extend of Maya Itza empire in 1519 with borders.png

I will keep trying to come up with better ideas, that is all I have right now.
 
pendrake said:
Chocohixyl
Click to expand...

What does this one mean? Google turns up nothing

pendrake said:
Why does the second one have two L’s?

kuLkuLkan ?
Click to expand...

That was mostly an oversight on my part, however turns out the CMON version is spelled without the first 'L' so that is probably why I spelt it that way without realizing it.

pendrake said:
@Warden

If two of the names translate to feathered serpent, why not “serpentmen”? In fact let’s spell it:

Serpentmann Army

Because Slann uses a dopple-nn.
Click to expand...

This one also works, for mostly the same reasons that Lizardmen works, but also would fall short in the "GW exclusive" category
 
In a perfect world, we would still be Lizardmen. Well in a perfect world, I would in charge of everything, but in a nearperfect world we would still be Lizardmen. We do not live in a nearperfect world.

Warden said:
So one of the biggest reasons I do not like the AOS lore is the new name GW chose for the Lizardmen to use in the age of copyright.
Click to expand...

I would be happy if GW ditched their crappy trademarkable names but I don't want to write the boat.

Seraphon is a lot more palatable than Oruk, Grott, Ogor, Trogoth and the worst of all is Gargant. But you know, they kept daemon.

Of all the races that got an arbitrary name change, we have the best one. I actually like the angel tie-in.

Warden said:
  • Con: No relation to old Mesoamerican lore or fluff
Click to expand...

Games Workshop seems to want to distance Seraphon from their Mesoamerican roots. In their minds, this is a pro. Because that is what they want to do. Kukulkani , Itza, Chocohixyl, and Quetzalcoatli would therefore be off the table. I personally like Itza. It's simple to say and spell and it goes along with "the First" motiff but it doesn't matter what I like. The only one GW would hypothetically consider is Serpentmann which isn't terrible but I'd rather have Seraphon.
 
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pendrake said:
Chocohixyl
Click to expand...

Warden said:
What does this one mean? Google turns up nothing
Click to expand...
:oops:
It doesn’t mean anything.

True story: I was posting elsewhere on the internet. I needed some letters as a placeholder. So I stabbed at the keyboard doing the equivalent of a cat walking across. Chocohxi was what came out. From there I swapped 2 letters and added 2 more. It looked so lizardmanlish I jotted it down, thinking it would be wanted somewhere for something.

Randomly generated: True Story
 
Scalenex said:
Games Workshop seems to want to distance Seraphon from their Mesoamerican roots. In their minds, this is a pro. Because that is what they want to do. Kukulkani , Itza, Chocohixyl, and Quetzalcoatli would therefore be off the table.
Click to expand...

True, it is an easier marketing direction to go towards the "stars" and "celestial" motif. More easily accessible.
 
Warden said:
True, it is an easier marketing direction to go towards the "stars" and "celestial" motif. More easily accessible.
Click to expand...

I doubt this crossed their minds, but Age of Sigmar has fewer shades of gray than Warhammer Fantasy. Given their proclivity towards mass sacrifice, Lizardmen were definitely gray.
 
To be honest:
Coming newly into the game, without having WHFB experience or any idea about the lore, the name Seraphon resonated rather well with me. I know that basically
Seraphon = basically Seraphim
Seraphim = Angels
Angels = Celestials from D&D
Celestials = like Daemons, but the good guys

To me that captures the essence of what they are now pretty well.
They are good, but they are also mysterious and mere mortals often don't get what they are up to. They are mighty and they appear in times of need, but they are not servants to the mortals.

I think we have it pretty good, compared to other armies.

That being said... I always cringe a little when someone takes what is basically a word from the bible or some similar source. It just isn't original and it doesn't become original just because you changed some letter.
It is even more cringy though if they use the original names, but use them wrongly. Looking at you, Stargate!
(Example: Asgard is a place. The dudes and dudettes there are called Aesir, not Asgard. It is like calling me a Germany. It hurts).
 
L'azyrdmen? ;)
Azyri / Azyran / Azyrec (like Aztec?)
Sauraphon

I'm not opposed to the name, Seraphon, I guess. I think I see how GW arrived at the name (and it may not be too far from the breakdown by @Aginor).

Age of Sigmar is odd. Admittedly, I haven't read much of the lore, but few of the armies seem to call themselves "human" or "dwarf". Instead we have Stormcast Eternals, Daughters of Khaine, Idoneth Deepkin, or Khadron Overlords. Who knows, maybe GW has BIG plans to redo the Seraphon models, turning them into more "angelic" feathered lizards since they have been bathed in the light of Azyr? That could play off both the root of the name and the Mesoamerican theme. (almost certainly not, but it's fun to brainstorm)
 
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Just A Skink said:
L'azyrdmen? ;)
Azyri / Azyran / Azyrec (like Aztec?)
Sauraphon

I'm not opposed to the name, Seraphon, I guess. I think I see how GW arrived at the name (and it may not be too far from the breakdown by @Aginor).

Age of Sigmar is odd. Admittedly, I haven't read much of the lore, but few of the armies seem to call themselves "human" or "dwarf". Instead we have Stormcast Eternals, Daughters of Khaine, Idoneth Deepkin, or Khadron Overlords. Who knows, maybe GW has BIG plans to redo the Seraphon models, turning them into more "angelic" feathered lizards since they have been bathed in the light of Azyr? That could play off both the root of the name and the Mesoamerican theme. (almost certainly not, but it's fun to brainstorm)
Click to expand...


While the L'azyrdmen pun is pretty funny, it may accidently make our scaley beasties look too lazy :D

The play on Aztec isn't bad, Azyrtec or something, especially with the connection to the lore of heavens. Again, it would probably be a name the humans give them, as "azyr" sounds more like a human word? Then again I don't know if their ever were established "lizardmen" names of the winds of magic in the old lore.

Sauraphon, Saurophon, that is playing into the "saurus" aspect a bit more, and the "dinosaur" part of the army we all love. Some google-latin-fu real quick:

old Greek (English meaning)--> modern Latin --> mid 19th century/present​

deinos (terrible) sauros (lizard) --> dinosaurus --> dinosaur​
 
Warden said:
While the L'azyrdmen pun is pretty funny, it may accidently make our scaley beasties look too lazy :D

The play on Aztec isn't bad, Azyrtec or something, especially with the connection to the lore of heavens. Again, it would probably be a name the humans give them, as "azyr" sounds more like a human word? Then again I don't know if their ever were established "lizardmen" names of the winds of magic in the old lore.

Sauraphon, Saurophon, that is playing into the "saurus" aspect a bit more, and the "dinosaur" part of the army we all love. Some google-latin-fu real quick:

old Greek (English meaning)--> modern Latin --> mid 19th century/present​

deinos (terrible) sauros (lizard) --> dinosaurus --> dinosaur​
Click to expand...
Ha ha ha. Yes, I thought that the first name looked a little too much like Lazymen. But, it was just a pun anyway.
The Azyr-based names were more "serious" and the Sauraphon is a bit of a pun too, and is to play up on the dinosaur aspect.

That said. I really like this thread. An Olmec, Maya, or Atzec based name could have worked great for the Seraphon. I also think a celestial inspired name could have been cool, but all of those were reserved strictly for the SCE.
 
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