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8th Ed. Dhun-Di, Great Oracle of Itzl (homebrew SC for feedback)

Discussion in 'House Rules' started by Dreadgrass, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. Dreadgrass
    Ripperdactil

    Dreadgrass Member

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    Hello again my cold-blooded compatriots!

    As some of you may know, Im building a homemade SC as a centrepiece for my army and in hopes of using him in a campaign Im planning with some friends. (go-go gadget self-promoting link: http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/dhun-di-great-oracle-of-itzl-fluff-for-a-home-brew-sc.12917/ )

    Been working on some rules to be able to field said character and would like some imput, so here goes:

    Dhun-Di, High Oracle of Itzl

    _________M WS BS_S_T_W_I _A_LD TROOP TYPE
    Dhun-Di __6 _6 _5 _4_ 3_3 _6_3_ 8 _ Infantry (Special Character)
    Terrodile_ 6_ 3 _0 _6_ 6_6 _3_5_ 6 _ Monster
    Crew ____ - _2 _3 _3_ -_ - _4_ 1_ - _ N/A ( see Howdah Rules)
    Dhun-Di's stats are based off Tehenhauin, the Terrodile's stats are Stegadon based with an extra wound and +2 attacks to bring it more in-line with Stonehorns/Other similar sized gribblies.

    Equipment:-
    Dhun-Di - Trident of Bho-wai, Tri-Horned Helm, Mistwreathed Pendant
    Terrodile - Howdah of Itzl with 4x Skink Crew
    Crew - hand weapons, Lustrian Javelins, Sacred Wardrums

    Special Rules

    All - Aquatic, Cold Blooded
    Dhun-Di - Scaly Skin (5+), Arcane Vassal
    Terrodile - Large Target, Immune to Psychology, Scaly Skin (3+), Terror, Primal Fury, Great Devourer (see below)
    Terrodile/Crew - Howdah Crew (as per Stegadon)

    Great Devourer - An Apex predator from a by-gone era, the sheer crushing power of the Terrodile's mighty jaws and jagged teeth surpass those of even the great Carnosaur. When attacking an enemy in it's front arc, The Terrodile's attacks (including those gained by Primal Fury but excluding Thunderstomps and crew attacks) have the Heroic Killing Blow Special Rule. ( Okay, Im not certain on this one. The Terrodile is loosely based on the Prehistoric Deinosuchus which is purported to have had a bite-strength twice that of a T-Rex. D3/D6 wounds seems too similar to the Carnosaur... thoughts?)

    Items

    Trident of Bho-wai - An intricately wrought Trident found in a sunken grotto, it has become a symbol synonymous with Dhun-Di. The Trident of Bho-wai grants the wielder +2 Strength on the turn they charge. In addition, it may be thrown with the following profile:

    Range_Strength___ Special Rules_________________
    _36"__ as user +2_ Quick to Fire, Multiple Wounds D3

    This shot pierces ranks in the same manner as a Bolt Thrower. The Trident returns to it's owners hand once damage has been resolved.
    That's not a spear... THIS is a Spear!

    Tri-Horned Helm - A revered artefact, held in the great vaults of Zlatlan awaiting the skink spawned to wear it. Moulded precisely to Dhun-Di's head, it would fit no other and is yet another sign of his singular destiny. The Tri-Horned Helm grants Dhun-Di a +1 bonus to his armoursave. In addition, it grants him the stubborn special rule.

    Mistwreathed Pendant - Discovered on an Obsinite pedestal in the midst of a swamp-choked ruin, the pendant exudes a marsh-gas like mist that befuddles a foes senses at close proximity and also throw up confusing reflective images of the bearer. grants the bearer a 5+ wardsave. In addition, all enemies in base contact with the bearer (or the bearers mount) suffer -1 Initiative.

    Howdah of Itzl - Wrought of Obsinite and precious metals, the Howdah that sits upon the Terrodiles back resembles nothing more than an ornate canoe or similar vessel.Treat as a Howdah in all respects. It also grants Dhun-Di and the Terrodile each a +1 bonus to their armoursave. In place of the usual Howdah weapons, the Howdah of Itzl carries the Sacred Wardrums.

    Sacred Wardrums - Whilst Dhun-Di is mounted upon the Howdah, each turn you may elect for the skink crew to play the Sacred Wardrums. Whilst playing the drums, the crew may do nothing else (including shooting and fighting in close combat). Whilst the drums play the combined model is treated as a mage with Loremaster (Life) and with a wizard level equal to the number of wounds Dhun-Di has remaining. In the event of a miscast, instead of rolling on the table, The Terrodile takes D3 S6 hits and Dhun-Di takes a single S5 hit with no armour save allowed (he may take his ward as normal).
    A concept I'm rather happy with, the Wardrums being life magic and thus are linked to Dhun-Di's own life force gives I feel an interesting synergy. There's probably not too many situations where you'd take the skinks attacks/shots over playing the drums but it's for the sake of completeness and if Dhun-Di dies they obviously revert to a normal crew.

    So in Summary:

    - Dhun Di has a 2+ save (5+ scaly + ridden monster + howdah + helm) and a 5+ ward, T3 and 3 wounds. relatively tough but an Oldblood he's not. He has a bolt-thrower javelin that equates to essentially a magic lance in combat. He also sports LD8 the same as Tehenhauin to keep those skink-centric "fighting" blocks in line.

    - Terrodile is a big beastie with S/T/W6 in the same manner as a Stonehorn or the like. Otherwise similar to an ancient stegadon with no impact hits but gaining more attacks, Primal Fury and a fancy bite attack. Also, his Stubborn is dependant on his rider surviving.

    - Whilst both parts of the model are alive you have a decent life mage.


    I'm thinking based on Tehenhauin and Stegadon pricings he's worth around 500pts? The kicker with him is so much of his utility (magic, bolt thrower, inspiring presence with LD8, stubborn) is dependant on a skink character who can be cannon-sniped, etc. He's supposed to be more of a fun choice than earth-shatteringly powerful, but we're also a fairly competitive bunch.

    I'd really appreciate any feedback you all could give, this is sort of a rough-draft (read: me spilling a bunch of ideas onto a page) so any suggestions/tweaks/whatever you could make would be great!
     
    Scalenex likes this.
  2. thedarkfourth
    Temple Guard

    thedarkfourth Well-Known Member

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    I like it, and I think 500 points is appropriate. I'm sure if it was in the actual army book it would be more like 6 or 7 hundred, but that's cos GW massively overcharges for special characters.

    If wizard level is tied to wounds, you will need to clarify how spells are chosen/lost.
     
  3. Lizardmatt
    Troglodon

    Lizardmatt New Member

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    500 seems too low.
    He hits way harder than Mazamundi, can be a level 6 wizard with loremaster life, and is rocking the 2+ armor.

    First, Itzl is the beast god of lizardmen right? So why do the drums give loremaster life?
    Instead, I would go with:
    Wardrums: loremaster beast, for each skink crew drumming, add +1 to cast (no bonus to dispel, no wizard levels). For purposes of the lore of beast, the Croc can be targeted by Savage Beast or Horros, or Pan's Pelt.

    Drop Init to 2, Reduce Armor to 3+. For super chomp, you need to limit heroic killing blow (it's too good on all the attacks). You could go with 1 attack is heroic killing blow, the rest are normal.



    -Matt
     
  4. Baergren
    Skink

    Baergren New Member

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    The wizard level is based off the characters wounds not the Terrodile so its only level 3. However I agree with the rest of these points, beasts seems more fitting considering the characters affinity with his mount.
     
  5. RipperDerek
    Temple Guard

    RipperDerek Member

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    I agree with Matt. Although...

    Great Devourer - As long as it is not satiated, the Terrodile may attempt to consume any single model in base contact. Before combat begins, nominate one model as the target. After the combat round is over, if the Terrodile is still alive, the target takes an initiative test. If it fails, it is immediately removed from the game with no saves of any type allowed. If a Monster, Monstrous Infantry, or Monstrous Cavalry model is consumed this way, the Terrodile becomes satiated, and can no longer make use of this special rule. For purposes of calculating combat resolution, the Terrodile is considered to have inflicted a number of wounds equal to the number of wounds the removed model had remaining.
     
  6. Lord Frosk
    Skink

    Lord Frosk New Member

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    Primal fury? So he takes a ld test in the beginning of each round of close combat and gets hatred if he passes it and frenzy on double ones? ;)
     
  7. Dreadgrass
    Ripperdactil

    Dreadgrass Member

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    First of all, thanks for all the feedback! Apologies, there are a few mistakes (Primal Fury for example :rolleyes:) as my internet is not the most stable and fear of losing what I had typed made me rush the post. Will make some fixes shortly.

    re: Points cost - 500 was a ballpark figure I plucked based off Tehenhauin + Ancient Steg. Will look into it further once the other rules are nailed down a bit more.

    re: Magic - I didn't want to go for Beasts as that would make him a bit too Tehenhaunin-esque I feel, (note max casting level would have been 3 not 6 as it was based off Dhun-Di's wounds) and Life seemed to be the next best fit. I'm thinking I'll re-make the drums though, to instead have a couple of bound spells contained within them (taking suggestions!) and you add Dhun-Di's remaining wounds total to the casting roll with no bonuses to dispel as suggested by LizardMatt. (note will still have a "miscast" element that at least has a chance at wounding Dhun-Di).

    re: Great Devourer - Still not sure what to do here, but RipperDerek's suggestion has me thinking of something along the lines of the Giant's "pick up and" attack. But I want it to have some form of effect on big gribblies as well... Also, will probably bring the Terrodile's attacks down to 4 and make this a "bonus attack" as LizardMatt suggested.

    re: general stats - Your probably right on the Initiative and save, the Initiative was an oversight tbh and I just wanted the palanquin to DO something for it's bearer, hence the armoured bulk giving +1 save.

    Further Thoughts?
     
  8. Lizardmatt
    Troglodon

    Lizardmatt New Member

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    Why not steal the Chomp rule from the beastmen big monster.
    Trade attacks for 1 attack that does D3 wounds, and you recover wounds.

    Wardrums doing a bound effect sounds better; or even an engine of the gods type effect.
    A) Bound 3, all enemy cavalry, monstrous cavalry, warbeasts, monstrous warbeasts and monsters, within 4D6", takes a panic test. Hex.
    B) Fleeing friendly units within 18" re-roll to rally.
    C) some third effect.

    -Matt
     
  9. Huinipachutli
    Skink

    Huinipachutli New Member

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    There are some intresting concepts here, but I think he is too "all around" meaning that he has strong abilities in shooting close combat and magic. I would rather specialise him in one of them, giving that he rides a Crocodile (my favourite animal) close combat is a no brainer. But as the drums and the beasts combined makes him a lot like mazdamundi. I would suggest making the drums more of a support thingy ( like the old wardrums magic item ) or a simple bound spell.

    also, replace the spear with something less shooty. If his name is Dhun-Di, he should have a knoife, should he not

    Anyway, keep making rules. Its fun.

    :D
     
  10. thedanman13
    Skink

    thedanman13 New Member

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    He needs a hat... A magic hat
     
  11. Dreadgrass
    Ripperdactil

    Dreadgrass Member

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    Got a few changes I'm considering:

    1) Terrodile - I want to make him a bit more differentiated from our other beasties. Everything I've used for comparison so far is more focused on other rules (the Ogre big gribblies have an ASL aura and Impact hits, Stegs have impact hits and the Carno is more a glass cannon than what Im aiming for). There is 1 monster though, that has a Howdah (crewed by goblins, which are similar statwise to skinks), is in the right weight-class, has some similar rules and can be a mount for a character. What if I base it more off the Araknarok spider from OnG?

    _________M WS BS_S_T_W_I _A_LD TROOP TYPE
    Terrodile_ 6_ 4 _0 _6_ 6_6 _3_6_ 6 _ Monster

    Pretty much the same statwise, I didn't want to bump it's wounds up (araknarok has 8!) but increased it's Attacks and WS.

    Special Rules

    Aquatic (Araknarok has multiple strider rules as well as Wall-crawler and Swiftstride.), ItP, Terror, Large Target, Stubborn, Howdah Crew (as per Stegs) (Araknarok has these too, as do our Stegs.), Predatory Fighter (Araknarok has Poisoned Attacks.), Natural Armour (3+) (Araknarok has 4+.), Great Devourer (Araknarok has Venom Surge.).

    Great Devourer - In addition to his normal attacks, the Terrodile may make 1 special "Devour" attack against a single enemy model in his front arc. If this attack hits, roll a D6 and adds the Terrodiles strength value. If the total surpasses the targets strength characteristic (any bonuses the target may have for weapons are not included for this) consult the following chart:

    Terrodile wins by 1-4 - Attack wounds automatically and deals D3 wounds (saves adjusted by Terrodiles strength as normal)
    Terrodile wins by 5-6 - Attack wounds automatically, deals D3 wounds, ignores armour saves and the Terrodile regains wounds equal to the amount of wounds caused.
    Terrodile wins by 7+ - Treat the model as if it had been Heroic Killing Blowed. The Terrodile regains wounds equal to the targets remaining wounds.

    However, if the target's strength is greater than the total, the Terrodile takes an automatic hit at the targets base strength.

    It's a very rough draft of where I'm aiming with Great Devourer. The idea behind it is the higher your strength the harder it is to crush you. On base stats (Strength 6) it's a 5+ KB on S4, a 6+ KB on S5, and can't KB S6+. Meaning you'll need strength buffs/debuffs to KB the things that'll really need it. Also note it's only targets in the forward arc, in close combat, and only if the Terrodile hits with it.

    Combined with a re-work of the drums and some tweaks to Dhun-Di, Im trying to establish the model as primarily a combat monster that can spam a bunch of low-risk/low-reward buffs. The Terrodile essentially provides the "combat monster" aspect.

    2)Dhun-Di - Not a whole lot of changes, Probably make his stats slightly more combat based, his weapon will drop the shooting aspect in favour of a more combative bonus (unsure what), dropping stubborn from his hat (Terrodile has it already) and will probably swap the wardsave onto it instead of the pendant, which will still give -1I but will possibly also give some kind of "shrouded" save from long-ranged shooting (again, not sure what) possibly along the lines of the old EotG's bubble but just for the model itself or possibly some MR?

    3) Drums - complete re-work here, still requires the skinks to use it (and thus cannot be used after Dhun-Di's death as they will then be trying to control the Terrodile) Thinking I'll make it a bit of a mini magic lore, with maybe 3-4 minor hex/ augment spells Most of which will only affect warbeasts, Swarms, Monstrous Beasts, Monsters and the mount aspects of Cavalry, Monstrous Cavalry and Ridden Monsters. They will be generally fairly hard to cast for what they do, but can be cast any number of times within the same magic phase, probably with an increase in difficulty each time cast. There will also be a mis-cast aspect. Basic ideas for spells so far:

    Lore attribute: Awakening the Beast - The part I'm most keen on. Essentially every time you successfully cast a spell from the drums (opponent fails to/chooses not to dispel) you gain a "Tempo-Token" As the tempo of the music builds, Dhun-Di and the Terrodile gain bonuses. However, if you Break your Concentration (roll a total of 2 or less for your casting attempt) you lose D3 tokens. This is the reason the spells will be relatively hard to cast, as they'll serve 2 purposes. Not sure whether to have it as a static bonus (eg. gain X tokens - get Y ability) or have them more as a spendable resource (eg. consume x amount of tokens, gain +1S until your next magic phase).

    Awaken the Fear - Target 1 enemy unit of *warbeast etc.* within 18" If in combat, the target unit must re-roll successful rolls to hit (in the case of mounted units, only the mounts suffer this), if not in combat, the unit suffers from stupidity until your next Magic phase.

    Awaken the Valor - Target 1 friendly unit of *warbeasts etc.* within 18" If it is fleeing, immediately test to rally the unit. If it is in combat, Treat the unit as being stubborn Until your next Magic phase, if the unit is already stubborn (and in combat) or is unengaged and not fleeing, it gains +1 LD Until your next Magic Phase.

    Awaken the Instinct - Target 1 unit of *Warbeasts etc.* within 18" (Friend or Foe). If the target is friendly, you may add +1 to it's strength, Toughness or armour save until your next Magic Phase. If the target is an enemy, you may subtract -1 from it's strength, Toughness or armoursave. (With both effects, in the case of mounted models, the strength and Toughness aspects only affect the mounts. As per the monstrous cavalry rules, you would still use the models best Toughness value if the rider's is higher)

    So, that's the basic ideas so far, wanted to get some feedback to flesh it out better and then will make a "2nd draft" akin to the original post.

    As always, really appreciate and input you guys/gals/other bipeds/other quadrupeds/legless creatures of presumably reptilian origins/anyone I've missed care to throw in, I'll take your 2 cents, the pennies for your thoughts, wild musings and anything else I can get my claws on! :smug:
     
  12. spawning of Bob
    Skar-Veteran

    spawning of Bob Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Dread, I had an idea a while ago but didn't post it. If Dhun-Di is slain off the back of the terrordile, Its attacks from then are replaced by a "death roll"

    Death roll attacks have heroic killing blow as the monster twists a large and probably important piece of flesh out of the target. All units in base contact (including friendly) take D6 strength 6 hits from flailing claws and tail. This doesn't work quite so well if the howdah is still in use......

    SoB
     
  13. Huinipachutli
    Skink

    Huinipachutli New Member

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    It would otherwise be interesting to make a special character riding a sea creature while bringing water terrain with him, like creating rivers as it advances. Some kind of "tide-rider of tzunki". Something like letting the skink cloud around benefit from being in soft cover and dangerous terrain defence if 6" of him/her.

    I would also love to organize a fan-based ruleset for the southlands list as per 6th edition, only with a unique set of special characters and a few new skink oriented units, as well as maybe some unique stealthy magic items.

    Southlands would play more like wood elves just with shorter range and a tad more manouverability.

    Enough with my ideas, now how about yours?

    As of yet, the whole design of the character is good. it is oriented mostly on the crocodiles combat capabilities, of which i think the ruleset is both interesting and nicely done. Now, with Dhun-di himself, I would suggest maybe making all of his drum melodies "one use only" so that he has a greater tactical element, while not resembling the Eotg or Bastiliadon (which both confers enough bonuses) and in return also discourage death-star builds.

    I suggest the melodies being a little more powerful (not much, just a little). And maybe be more oriented about the Weather, such as "Melody of the River, Wind and Jungle" or something like that. The motivation for being one use only is that the power of the element weather chosen gets drained after one use.

    Anyway, I'm just throwing out ideas here, you are not obliged to follow them. I just wanted to give you some inspiration and share thoughts.
     

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