TOW Första 2000 mot He Sun Dragon

[Kalisto]

Hi! I played the following list for the first time at 2000.

The high elves had lord with Ogre blade on Sun Dragon (toughness only 5).

Bsb on tiranoc chariot with bow with 3/4A S5

Wizard level 4 with flying carpet and reroll is casting

20 spearmen with warbanner
Some detachment archers

5x2 units of alariel sisters (Do they calls so?)

2 ballista

7 silver helms with full command

2 x7 hoeth guardians with drilled

1 eagle

I had following:

===
Slann Magic 2 [2000 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Lizardmen
===

++ Characters [777 pts] ++

Slann Mage-Priest [410 pts]
- Hand weapon
- General
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Lore Familiar
- Power Scroll
- Becalming Cogitation
- Elementalism

Skink Chief [114 pts]
- Cavalry spear (if appropriately mounted)
- Light armour (Calloused hide)
- Terradon
- Ruby Ring of Ruin
- Charmed Shield

Saurus Oldblood [253 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Cold-One
- Ogre Blade
- Charmed Shield
- Horned One
- Luckstone

++ Core Units [584 pts] ++

10 Saurus Warriors [147 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Shields
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Spawn Leader (champion)

16 Temple Guard [277 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Shields
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Revered Guardian (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

10 Skink Skirmishers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Javelins
- Shields
- Light armour (Calloused hides)

10 Skink Skirmishers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Javelins
- Shields
- Light armour (Calloused hides)

10 Skink Skirmishers [60 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Blowpipes
- Light armour (Calloused hides)

++ Special Units [384 pts] ++

3 Kroxigors [154 pts]
- Great weapons
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Ancient (champion)

Bastiladon [175 pts]
- Thunderous bludgeon
- Solar Engine
- Skink Crew (x3) with hand weapons and Javelins (required)

5 Chameleon Skinks [55 pts]
- Blowpipes
- Hand weapons
- Light armour (Calloused hides)

++ Rare Units [255 pts] ++

Ancient Stegadon [255 pts]
- Great horns and Engine of the Gods
- Skink Crew (x5) with hand weapons and Javelins (required)

 

[Kalisto]

The report will following soon…

 

[Kalisto]

So here the battle report!

On the right flank Bastiladon and 10 saurus went well throu, the bastiladon launched a lot of magic missiles destroying archers and ballista without be dispelled. 10 saurus are quite BAD even with champion but could manage to destroy 7 hoeth swordsmen. It's the price to have the temple guard..

In the left flank he had big luck with the dragon rolling 5,5,6 and (even discarding the highest dice) could charge my chameleons (his dragon was impetuos so he needed to try), maybe my wrong i stand and shoot since i believed he wouldn't reach me...
The eagle put itself between chameleons and kroxigor, kroxigors killed her with a charged but since they hitting together 1 kroxigor died (damn double wounds attack), he was maybe lucky but then the 2 remaining kroxigor in charge against hoeth blades died before to attack. The initiative rule with great weapon is so bad for them...will really consider to avoid them in the future.

In the middle temple guards worked well and could stop the dragon with the challenge rule. The oldlord on cold one did his job charging silver helms and blocking the hero charging on chariot. He fleed but lately was 1 vs 1 hero against hero both with 1 wound left (but he has only S3 attack so he will probably have died next round).

The skink on terradon and ruby of ring was simply AMAZING. Casted 2 fireballs, launched rocks on the caster and the tuurn would have been killed the caster level 4 (we finished the game at 3rd round due lot of time deploying checking rules and so on)...

I couldn't do anything to the dragon, even if i charged him with ancient stegadon (3 wounds) he didn't die and took only 3 wounds even if he has only S and T 5. The HE hero striking first and with ogre blade should have killed anything, probably even a Oldlord on carnosaur... Regenration 5+ that is not negate either by flaming attacks for just 20 points it's simply overpowered...

Other throughs?
- High magic and drain magic are maybe good but it worked just ONCE! My slann was often outside 24 or i could dispel before he casted it, the other high magic spells did more or less nothing. The only good to with that one doing the caster ethereal and moving with reserve flying...
- Becalming cogitation helped just ONCE to dispel. The big help however is to dispel at 27" and still cast outside the enemy wizard dispel range (if just 1 wizard on the board)
- Engine of Gods was (for the second time) a bit a delusion. A mean the power level 3 is good but it's 2d6 S4 without AP...the main problem is the range REALLY limited. An if you have an ancient stegadon for 255 points you want to charge, not to stay on distance and shoot the missile....Also because the missile is only in the 90 degree arc range...

Well i missed my 3 terradons and their drop rocks. However i don't miss their attacks that is quite bad now. It would be interesting to play 3 if i had the points.
I didn't miss the salamanders, quite bad mobility and costly, however maybe one near a big infantry unit have been nice as support.
Against High Elf and big dragons oldlord on coldone can do nothing...however he is still tough and quite good against cavalry/chariot charges.


Any suggestions? should you have change anything ?

 

[discomute]

Your army list isn't complete

I fear the Kroxigor are quite bad too but everyone thinks otherwise. Although I'd say the swordmasters are a bad match up for them.

 

[Kalisto]

Your army list isn't complete

I fear the Kroxigor are quite bad too but everyone thinks otherwise. Although I'd say the swordmasters are a bad match up for them.

Fixed it!
I agree with you but dragon shouldn’t have been better

 

[discomute]

I do not rate the charmed shield or luck stone. It's hard on a horned one as you can no longer afford a 65 point weapon and talisman of protection. But I think there are much better magic item combos. Potion of toughness at 20 points I think works better than those two.

Your Saurus units are too small.

Yes ogre blade extremely difficult to last against. In general I think if you want to be competitive you need to put more points into your characters and their mounts. Especially in the age of dragons. Your very close to being able to put a chief on a stegadon instead of having it in the rare slot.

 

[Fxt]

thanks for the report, i'm trying the skink on terradon too, but also giving him the biting blade as well as ruby ring and charmed shield. I don't dislike him.

Engine of Gods was (for the second time) a bit a delusion. A mean the power level 3 is good but it's 2d6 S4 without AP...the main problem is the range REALLY limited. An if you have an ancient stegadon for 255 points you want to charge, not to stay on distance and shoot the missile....Also because the missile is only in the 90 degree arc range...

shouldn't the stegadon have "firing platform" from it's howdah rule? therefore it should be able to cast the spell in an arc of 360 degrees. on the other hand the bastilodon, not having the rule, only sees in an arc of 90 degrees.
anyway, i prefer the bow over the machine, cheaper and a good shoot can destroy a dangerous warmachine at the start of the game.


for the monsters, I think "monster slayer" illusionism slann is our best weapon. if the rider have not a multiwounds or a killing blow weapon, we can try to slay him, otherwise we can try to block him all the game (with column or mirage).

 

[Kalisto]

@Fxt i know but don’t like illusion Slann, useless with most of the things otherwise and cannot dispel in melee.

Regarding howdaw are you sure it works for missiles too? I have to check the rules but is a good suggestion! I haven’t thought that Bastiladon had only 90 degree view, unfortunately

@discomute the potion is nice but don’t work if you get charged…next time I’ll probably try with talisman of protection and stupidity, unfortunately I haven’t a carnosaur yet that’s reason I am playing him so. Testing…

Infantry units are small, I know, but do you really need bigger ones? 600 points going 4 with no shooting is a bit a waste that reason I play smaller units. Do you have any suggestions to what remove instead?

 

[discomute]

I do not rate the illusion and monster slayer Slann.

I think if I wanted an old blood on a horned one I would use either
a) great weapon/armour meoteric iron/talisman of protection
Or
b) biting blade, shield, talisman of protection

If you feared ethereal

I think the great weapon is decent replacement for a magic item. given we strike last usually anyway. And yes possibly adding a potion of toughness if you had the points.

If I was removing points well the chameleon skinks would be first in line. And yes keeping the giant bow over the engine of the gods too. You'd save a little if you went for my magic item combo too.

Edit - I forgot that cold ones have armoured hide. That makes me not want armour of meoteric iron.

Yes I think the biting blade combo is therefore the best.

Another option worth considering would be
Bedazzling helm/talisman of protection/great weapon shield

You'd have 2+/5+ against missile attacks and 3+/5+ in combat (plus -1 to hit), hopefully enough that striking last wouldn't matter, and you'd hit pretty hard when you did

 

[Kalisto]

Bedazzling helm/talisman of protection/great weapon shield Is probably a good one combo with horned one. But the question is.. would it help against a dragon? Not sure about that.. maybe.

I am still tempted to play it stupid with ogre blade and talisman of protection (or cold one hide and shield with ts 6+). In combo with a Slann and leadership 9 is maybe doable. I wouldn’t try that with leadership 8 although

 

[discomute]

Bedazzling helm/talisman of protection/great weapon shield Is probably a good one combo with horned one. But the question is.. would it help against a dragon? Not sure about that.. maybe.

I am still tempted to play it stupid with ogre blade and talisman of protection (or cold one hide and shield with ts 6+). In combo with a Slann and leadership 9 is maybe doable. I wouldn’t try that with leadership 8 although

I don't think much will help on a dragon. The best bet is a carnosaur with ogre blade and talisman of protection. If you're on a cold one, I don't think you can realistically expect to take on a dragon with any combo. Of course you'll be half the cost of points.

Dragons are simply overpowered, even for their high point cost. I think the only realistic avenue to take them on making your opponent feel guilty to taking one...

 

[Kalisto]

Agree with you, but isn’t going to help to a tournament

The dragon in the battle report was a young one … more or less like a gryphon. Even with carnosaur I see it really hard to kill a big one

 

[discomute]

Agree with you, but isn’t going to help to a tournament

The dragon in the battle report was a young one … more or less like a gryphon. Even with carnosaur I see it really hard to kill a big one

Well another member says the standard stack tomb king dragon (known to be one of the best, if not the best), we have a 57% chance of winning a 1v1 fight with a carnosaur and ogre blade and talisman of protection and a 51% chance with the blade of revered Tzunki (which I think is more versatile) and a talisman of protection and carnosaur

 

[Fxt]

@Fxt i know but don’t like illusion Slann, useless with most of the things otherwise and cannot dispel in melee.

Regarding howdaw are you sure it works for missiles too? I have to check the rules but is a good suggestion! I haven’t thought that Bastiladon had only 90 degree view, unfortunately

"Firing Platform: From the cab of a chariot, warriors can shoot in all directions. For the purposes of shooting and casting spells, this model has a 360° vision arc."

I know, i didn't like illusionism either, i prefer elementalism but i really have problem with carnos because of their low saves (when basically every other monster have easily 2+, a ward save, maybe a regeneration and even a magic sword) and ws3 is basically saying you are paying 170 points to test your luck on 5 or 6+ to hit. more than that frenzy in this edition is too much exploitable by a good opponent player. I have to try them at 2000, playing duo, but i'm not so convinced.

 

[Kalisto]

Well another member says the standard stack tomb king dragon (known to be one of the best, if not the best), we have a 57% chance of winning a 1v1 fight with a carnosaur and ogre blade and talisman of protection and a 51% chance with the blade of revered Tzunki (which I think is more versatile) and a talisman of protection and carnosaur

I am not sure he is one of the bests.. HE lord has higher WS and always attack first, sword with dragon slayer, honour with easy regeneration 5+…. Guess him and the chaos one are best.

Carnosaur is just good to extra resistance and wounds, I don’t count too much upon him against a dragon. The other good thing is that you avoid the stupidity test if you want a 65 points blade and talisman of protection

 

[Kalisto]

By the way… is just me not founding rules for blood frenzy? I thought it was as before but now I checked couldn’t find it either on rules or in lizardmen book !!!

 

[BeardedLizard]

It's listed under Carnosaur rules:

Blood Frenzy
Carnosaurs are huge, aggressive creatures that become almost impossible to control when they taste
the blood of the enemy.
When this model (but not its rider) inflicts an unsaved wound upon an enemy model, it
becomes subject to the Frenzy special rule. A model with this special rule may become
Frenzied in this way even if it has lost Frenzy earlier in the game.
Note that this model’s rider does not gain a +1 modifier to their Attacks characteristic.

 

[Kalisto]

It's listed under Carnosaur rules:

Blood Frenzy
Carnosaurs are huge, aggressive creatures that become almost impossible to control when they taste
the blood of the enemy.
When this model (but not its rider) inflicts an unsaved wound upon an enemy model, it
becomes subject to the Frenzy special rule. A model with this special rule may become
Frenzied in this way even if it has lost Frenzy earlier in the game.
Note that this model’s rider does not gain a +1 modifier to their Attacks characteristic.

Ah ok I missed it… it was exactly as before in 6/7ed