This is a repost of a thread @Haemoglobin posted at 9th Age forum. Posting it again here so the feedback is actually balanced, instead of only being pro 9th Age. If you want to view the thread on 9th Age forum, click here. Hello my fellow lizards The higherups have provided us with a Feedback Report template. The information in this thread will be compiled and given to the ABC, RT etc. Keep in mind this is a thread that is not meant for discussing the units, changes or any proposals. Please keep this in the other slot-specific threads I have set up earlier. There is a deadline of March 18 in which the SA AS have to present their first findings to the ABC. There will be a second round of feedback by March 26. It is important that we get as many people posting in this thread as possible. All feedback is greatly appreciated! Use the following template and try to be to the point: Please provide the details of your experiences with the new rules, v0.99. Provide anecdotal details where you can. 1) How do you feel about the core rule book changes in regards to your army? 2) How do you feel about the common magic item changes in regards to your army? 3) How do you feel about changes to the magic paths in regards to your army? 4) Special Army Rules a) How do you feel about the special rules for army after the update? Cold Blooded Born Predator Telepathic Link 5) Units a) How do you feel about our units after the update? Saurian Warlord Skink High Priest Cuatl Lord Saurian Veteran Skink Captain Skink Priest Caiman Ancient Saurian Warriors Skink Braves Snake Swarms Skink Hunters Temple Guard Raptor Riders Caimans Skink Sky-Riders Thyroscutus Weapon Beasts Taurosaur Stygiosaur 6) Please let us know about the overall performance of your army after the changes. 7) What play styles have been successful and which have not been successful for you? 8) Anything you would like to add?
Repost of @Haemoglobin first post in the thread. I will give an example and go first: Please provide the details of your experiences with the new rules, v0.99. Provide anecdotal details where you can. 1) How do you feel about the core rule book changes in regards to your army? Core rule book changes have not influenced the SA book greatly. 2) How do you feel about the common magic item changes in regards to your army? Some items are interesting, for instance Armour of Fortune for a mere 25 points. Some of the SA specific items are not as interesting: - Sword of the Dawn Ages: pretty expensive at 70/45. Not sure I will use it a lot. - Taurosaur helm: was barely used in earlier editions and has received a nerf (models on foot only). Won't be using it. - Starfall Shard: pretty expensive for only a Flameborn and -1 to hit from ranged attacks. Quite unusable for any character that is in a unit. - Jade Staff: a good item, but has a strongly reduced effect because not being able to shield Large targets. - Black Cube: while being cheap it uses an Arcane slot for a One use only that is not even that strong. Earlier version was better. - Totem of Mixaotl: looks like a good item, I like it! 3) How do you feel about changes to the magic paths in regards to your army? I am positive about changes to magic paths. Path of Light needed a nerf which has happened. The only downside I am seeing is that the Path of White magic Attribute change. Cannot be used to shield any Large targets which was the best thing about using the Jade Staff in the book. 4) Special Army Rules a) How do you feel about the special rules for army after the update? Cold Blooded No change Born Predator Losing BP with GWs and Magic Weapons seems like a strange nerf. It forces the SA army to move away from GWs and magic weapons due to the fact that we will be paying for a special rule that cannot be used if we get a GW or magic weapon. It limits the amount of builds we can have. The BP loss from both Carnosaurs is also a bit harsh, considering they really needed something to counter the inevitable fluffing of to hit rolls. Telepathic Link Reduced the effectiveness of the TL does not seem to be a huge issue to me. I will confess that I do not use Coatls often. 5) Units a) How do you feel about our units after the update? Saurian Warlord BP nerf is annoying because it forces us into builds without GWs and magic weapons. The Heavy Armour option is still restricted to units on foot so that will not be used often (if at all). Saurian Warlords still only have a 5+ Innate which seems odd considering Saurian Warriors have the same Innate. Alpha Carnosaur has had his effectiveness removed due to a loss of BP (both rider and mount), loss of 1 WS, loss of 1 A and loss of synergies with Jade Staff, Starfall Shard and Engine of the Ancients. Mounting him on a Carnosaur however is nice. It has some great defensive capabilities. 2+ rerollable with 4++ is easily achieved. Whilst risky (the mount is frenzied after all) it provides a nice character at a decent cost. Skink High Priest In my eyes superior to a Coatl. Cheaper, just as effective and synergy with the Engine of the Ancients. I feel that SHP will be used a lot more than Coatl's for these reasons. The Palanquin upgrade is nice, however the Hatred upgrade is not going to be used. Unsure why the Hatred upgrade was restricted to Skinks as Skinks arent really meant for CC. Cuatl Lord Not a lot to say about him. He is still a good mage but he is also very expensive. His escort (Temple Guard) is also very expensive so I think that a lot of players will go for the cheaper Skink High Priest and use the leftover points for more effective options. Saurian Veteran Solid BSB choice. BP issue is the same as with the Warlord. Mounting him on the Carnosaur is interesting yet a tad risky if BSB. Nothing wrong with him except the BP loss on him and the Carnosaur. Skink Captain BS nerf was needed so glad that went through. The T reduction on the Alpha Ramphodon is also a bit meh. A nerf was required but a price increase might have been more appropriate. The Chief on Ramphodon now only has a few targets (war machines and chaff) and is easy to kill. Skink Priest Standard Dispel Scroll caddy. He's fine. Caiman Ancient The loss of the BSB rule was a big hit. He was not being used a lot but you could take him in a unit of Caimen and get a nice banner in your unit. I doubt he will be used at all right now. He is just a really expensive Caimen with a buff that can be given by a Thyroscutus with the Sun Engine. Saurian Warriors A bit strange to see that these have received a price increase. If the goal was to make sure that they were taken over Skink Braves then I do not know if this is going to work. Spears still cost 2 ppm and to combine that with a 12 point model and add an additional point for one of the totems then we get a unit at 15 ppm. That is pretty steep for a unit with WS 3 I 2. The Crocodile Totem change is also a bit odd because I did not feel that there was an issue with it neither have I read about any issues. Skink Braves Again some strange changes. The good thing about them is that they can be taken in units of 10. The bad things about them is the fact that they cannot use Paired Weapons anymore. This reduces their already feeble CC utility. Fusing them with Skink Hunters is another odd step. It has essentially removed a Core choice from the Core selection. Snake Swarms Basic swarms, good for redirecting and having additional drops. The poison can be useful but at the same time bringing swarms into combat makes you bleed combat resolution. Skink Hunters Skink Hunters are good at 50 points for 5 models. They are outclassed by Chameleons though for that price. Pretty sure that in most lists 3x Chameleons will be an autoinclude. Temple Guard 15 points for these guys is steep but it seems that it similar to other Elite units. I don't really use them that much so hard for me to say. Raptor Riders The reduction in price is a good start but the core problem of the unit is the same. They will charge in and lose models because of their low Initiative. I believe that even with the point reduction they will still not be a popular choice. Caimans The T nerf was to be expected, but at least we got a Light Armour out of it. A unit of 6 is nice and cheap (312 with FC) and still pretty effective. GWs however will probably not be taken considering the loss of the PF rule. A unit of 10 with FC, Halberds and backed up by Path of Light is strong and will probably be popular. Skink Sky-Riders Pteradons are fine, Ramphodons have received a nerf and a price increase. They are still playable but not sure why the nerfs/point increase happened. Thyroscutus A nice Poison or WS buff for 130 points? Looking good! Weapon Beasts Spearbacks got the nerf they deserved so I am satisfied about that. The only downside is the fact that Spearbacks and Salamanders got merged which really reduces their availability. Would have preferred to have them seperate. Taurosaur Price increase, Impact hit change and Engine change. The change to the Power of Tezquatl makes no sense as it only promotes the use of the Skink High Priest even more. Flames of Xiteqli is still bad and will not be used. Shield of Tlaloq needed a nerf but is still usable which is fine. Shame about the 6+ ward removal. The Sharpened Horns change is nice, especially combined with the Skink Captain + War Spear. Stygiosaur Cheap monster with good options and the option of getting the best (in my opinion) spells in the Path of Wilderness. The new Predatory Roar is good aswell and synergies with the new banner (2x Hatred in a combat? Nice). One strange thing: why does the Stygiosaur have BP while the Carnosaurs don't? 6) Please let us know about the overall performance of your army after the changes. Having played only one game the SA seemed to be performing as expected. This particular game was a bit hard to get a good test because of the fact that it was a CC oriented list fighting against a SE MSU style list. The Warlord on Carnosaur perfomed well. 7) What play styles have been successful and which have not been successful for you? Not enough games yet to test different play styles. 8) Anything you would like to add? A lot of strange changes that do not make a lot of sense have been implemented. Good examples being the Skink Palanquin providing Hatred to only Skinks. The Stygiosaur having BP while both Carnosaurs don't. Oh boy this has turned out to be a long post
Here is my reply: 4) Special Army Rules a) How do you feel about the special rules for army after the update? Born Predator This nerf does not really make sense. You could explain the GW part, but not magical weapons. Telepathic Link Not sure why this was deemed a problem that had to be nerfed 5) Units a) How do you feel about our units after the update? Saurian Warlord Affected by the BP nerf. The raptor mount is a little expensive, the alpha carno is not usable. Skink High Priest Dont feel the mount nerf was needed. Cuatl Lord Been hit with too many nerfs, not sure why I would use it instead of the High Priest. Saurian Veteran Affected by the BP nerf. Caiman Ancient Not sure why I would use it. Saurian Warriors Too expensive, 2ppm for spears is a joke. If the idea was to force us to use this unit more, then increasing the cost of adding additional models is a odd way of doing it, considering we need the ranks. Snake Swarms Perhaps an auto include now, possibly the next unit to be nerfed due to this? (I.e. we have very few viable options... so the solutions is to look at why and not just hit nerf) Skink Hunters Should be kept in core, or at least separate from camos. Atm I not sure why I will use them over camos. Temple Guard They are expensive and cannot stand up vs. other elite troops that are cheaper... Raptor Riders Not really usable in the current state, too expensive. Caimans Even with the nerf this is an auto include, as they are a better option than SW. While the T5 nerf is understandable, it is odd this was not applied at a ground level, when other armies have better MI than Caimans who is still higher T. Perhaps the rules team should have asked themselves why Caimans was an auto include for us compared to the other armies who has better MI who dont use it at the same level, instead of hitting the big red "nerf it all" button. Weapon Beasts They should not be combined, this limit our choices even more. Also not sure I understand why we lost venom. 8) Anything you would like to add? A lot of inconsistent and weird changes. In addition looking at the larger picture some units has been double nerfed due to multiple changes that affect them, which might not have been taken into consideration when making the nerfs. If we look at it from a lore standpoint, it is a mess now.
Keep it up! Any feedback is good feedback and will be used. We are currently in the progress of gathering all the feedback reports in a single file. If anyone else would like to add to the feedback thread please do so. I will include as much as possible until the first deadline (18/03).
Please provide the details of your experiences with the new rules, v0.99. Provide anecdotal details where you can. 1) How do you feel about the core rule book changes in regards to your army? Good job on continuing to clarify rules and make items less ambiguous, it was starting to feel very complicated even for Warhammer but I think streamlining some items is helping. 2) How do you feel about the common magic item changes in regards to your army? I really like the common magic items, there seems to be a good selection and they apply more to heroes than lords which is a fun dynamic and provides for less abuse. In relation though the SA specific items are at least half garbage, specifically the following: Sword of the Dawn Ages – As the common sword that gives +1S is 15pts that means we are paying an additional 55pts for a lord to get MW2, not only is it situational but just plain not worth it, grossly overcosted and not even a fun option for me. Taurosaur Helm – Saurian characters are the only viable wearer, unless going up to T4 and getting a single S4 impact hit is considered great. And with saurian characters on foot that impact hit is on a M4 model. Remove impact hit and on foot restriction. Black Cube – spend an arcane slot and 15pts to remove a single power dice from the pool one time. And you are not even getting that dice as a dispel bonus, this is very crap, no amount of lowering points will make it worth it. Even free and I would choose a different arcane item over it. 3) How do you feel about changes to the magic paths in regards to your army? Light needs to give WS and I bonuses that outclass other armies basic scores, or re-work the spells so that they give static bonuses to hit and possibly distracting (from shining really brightly). Otherwise it will be very restrictive to this and other low WS/I armies. 4) Special Army Rules a) How do you feel about the special rules for army after the update? Cold Blooded – No change which is odd since almost everything else has changed, honestly I would take a change here if it meant I could roll back the 0.99 update. Born Predator – Ridiculous nerf to our army, what other army wide special rule was nerfed like this or doesn’t work with certain items? Do GW wielding elves suddenly lose lightning reflexes and strike last or magic weapon wielding Chaos lords lose all benefits from their chosen mark? This limits builds which is bad, it does not have external balance which is bad, and screws with internal balance which is bad. Telepathic Link – Not bad by itself, but along with almost everything else in 0.99 nerfs were handed out in roving packs. Just one of many Cuatl nerfs that made him obsolete. 5) Units a) How do you feel about our units after the update? Saurian Warlord – Alpha Carnosaur is not going to be fielded, he was hit with so many nerfs that he is not a viable option anymore, raptor is overpriced, builds are severely limited by BP nerf and he does not compare well to other combat oriented lords. Something needs to be changed so that he fills a specific role, I suggest a unit buff for all BP models and access to totems with some character specific. Otherwise the only build I see as very viable is carnosaur with max defensive items and halberd, which should only be one of many ways to play him effectively. Skink High Priest – Great unit and has natural synergy with a few army options, possibly too many, reduce taurosaur buff to -1, change hatred back to effecting all models (skinks were never and will never be close combat oriented, unless you change the abysmal WS2/T2 stats), and give him some more mount options. Cuatl Lord – Entirely too expensive for his utility, it was very hard to justify his points before and most played with him due to the model and feel of the army. Now he has been nerfed extensively in multiple ways and across multiple builds to include overall magic being nerfed, he is not a viable choice. Change his disciplines to allow for army buffs as well, give him access to a Cuatl specific lore, reduce points, something to be unique as a caster and still an asset to the army rather than a points sink. Saurian Veteran – Same points as warlord above, seriously need totem options and to fix BP. Skink Captain – Need to re-work mount costs, see elves for external balance, they have better characters with the same flying mount option but better and for less. BS change was only needed for taurosaur, doesn’t make sense across the board with internal or external balance and points did not drop either. Also could really use a few more weapon options, it would help to stop shoving SA players into specific builds, see any other army book for examples of weapon options. Also leadership is equal to the lowest goblin leadership, this should be changed, if you want to penalize our leadership because we already have the cold blooded rule then deal with it directly not in this roundabout way. Skink Priest – Really don’t like the fact that he is a scroll caddy for everyone, but meh. Caiman Ancient – He wasn’t really worth the points to begin with, now removing BSB and nerfing synergy he is garbage and I certainly would never play him. Bring a better/different unit buff if you don’t want to stack WS bonuses, this should have been obvious. As a character he needs more options, I suggest totems, BSB, two different unit buff options, etc. He could be fun, flavorful, and balanced, but right now he is nothing. Saurian Warriors – Grossly overpriced, the starting unit size is spot on for what all the models should cost, no more than 9ppm. Compare to other units of similar stats for external balance and you will see they should be at 8-9ppm before upgrades. Internal balance they are lacking in as well, way too expensive compared to other options, so you will mainly see skrox units (As just braves suck in combat, again what rules team person had the idea that WS2/T2 models should be close combat oriented?). Give saurus better totems at varying points, such as the following: Piranha = AP1 Serpent = Fight in Extra Ranks Jaguar = +2 M Crocodile = innate defense +1 Monkey = AHW option Viper = Lightning reflexes Skink Braves – WotDG have better core shooting than SA now, that should be offensive to the whole T9A rules team. I would rather poison shooting be given back to SA core, but if that is absolutely a no then get creative with solutions and stop limiting choices once again. The only reason skinks and poison shooting was so prevalent was because SA core is the most limited out of everyone, give us some viable builds and you will see more variety. Skinks should not have to pay for skirmishing if they are losing poison, how does that make sense externally or internally, also javelins are significantly worse than throwing weapons even though they are actually throwing weapons. Massive external balance issue with this unit, skinks costs should start at no more than 3ppm, compare to any other unit of similar stats and options. And once again multiple nerfs have effected possibly not intended targets, the caimans in this unit no longer have BP, but seem to still be paying for it. Snake Swarms – These are fine as is, unfortunately they are an auto-include now because our core section is so poor. What other army is actually including swarms as a large part of core points? Honestly seeing a swarm as a go to choice should be insulting to the rules team, they should be fun to use not a must have just because everything else is so bad. Skink Hunters – So many issues, see other SA player comments Temple Guard – Same issues as saurus, grossly overcosted and lacking external and internal balance. Compare to other units of same stats, like WotDG chosen, significantly better stats, better army synergy options, more unit options, and temple guard are 25% more expensive. Temple Guard need to be no more than 12ppm (chosen should be more), with totem options and more weapon choices, we are the only army that limits our elite infantry to a single weapon. Why is that? It certainly isn’t an external balance issue because everyone else is doing it, and it certainly isn’t an internal balance issue because temple guard are crap compared to other units. More viable options will mean less broken builds and more fun. Raptor Riders – Good job not nerfing them, they are still overcosted for what they can accomplish especially when compared to other units of the same stats and roles. They need something else that will make them playable on a consistent basis instead of just character delivery systems. I suggest totems for them as well, or a 1+ armor save, or even different weapon options like halberds or GWs. Caimans – T5 was nerfed due to it being too OP for MI, that has been invalidated by other army MI with T5. I suggest giving it back to them at increased point costs, and to make other units more viable so you do not see a single build all the time. It is not that the unit itself was OP, there are already a large number of units that can crush it easily, the problem was that you saw it all the time due to there not being better options like temple guard or raptor riders. Skink Sky-Riders – leadership is far too low for a frenzied unit, compare to other army leadership values to get external balance right. And if anyone is going to point to cold blooded then remember we are already paying for that, don’t penalize a unit because you gave it a different rule. If you have a problem deal with it directly. Thyroscutus – Good job on the points increase, it needed to be equal, but the bound spell could use work, I suggest giving it two options with a buff included. Weapon Beasts – Excellent move to rare for spearbacks, we already have a poor rare section, needs to be separate from salamanders to provide more choices (A serious lack of choices is an overarching statement from 0.99). Also bring back the venom salamander, it was not abused and provided a fun alternative to the normal version, again please give more army choices. Taurosaur – Points increase was a little much, especially with the nerf in other options, flames option is still garbage. Possibly re-work options to provide more choices or at least provide a couple good choices. Stygiosaur – Seems like a good cost for the options it provides, I have not seen it abused or overly weak for what it does. This is a great example of providing options on a unit that make it work differently but viable in all ways. 6) Please let us know about the overall performance of your army after the changes. It has been performing quite subpar overall, I mainly enjoy close combat builds and I have not been able to perform well because other armies are able to field better units at less cost than I can. Specific examples are any goblin unit crushes my skink formations, eadbashers make very short work of my warriors or guards, all WotDG units I have fought have been equal points or cheaper and able to handle themselves much better. Elves are killing my combat units much faster than I can hit back as I don’t have the ability to have a deep enough ranks to hit back. I feel that the more options I try out the more I am forced into a very specific build to remain competitive, I am now benching most of the units I would have liked to include and focus on character heavy lists with as much skrox and poison shooting support I can get, max weapon beasts as well of course. 7) What play styles have been successful and which have not been successful for you? Character heavy lists, lots of saurian characters on MB with max defense items and halberds, no warriors or temple guard, max chameleons and weapon beasts. This has been the only effective list I have been able to field against multiple opponents. The styles that have not been effective are lists with a lot of different units and any kind of combat oriented list. 8) Anything you would like to add? It seems very obvious to me that there has been a massive bias against SA (I collect and play every army and have 5 that are much larger than my SA army), external balance seems to have been thrown away for SA and they received not small changes for large multiple effect nerfs across many different units and builds. I would like to see the rules team declare what role they see SA armies play and work towards making that happen, and to focus more on actual statistical analysis rather than forum comments (even mine) when deciding buffs and nerfs.
Im just getting in before the cut-off. I am at work and have no time to write up my own. I agree with pretty much all points here. Especially the Venom Sally option!! This was a massive blow for me as I was really enjoying the "artillery" feel. Please bring this back.