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8th Ed. how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guard?

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by NexS1, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

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    I find crying into my pillow works.
    They failed miserably tonight. I think this will be the end of temple guard for ever. They are over priced and crap.

    I am going to wallow in shame for some time, then fall asleep!


    P.s. please consider this an invitation to discuss similar shortcomings found with this unit and how best to make them less useless!
     
  2. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    to be effective you need a least 20 of them to go with your Slann, and it helps if the slann can augment them.
     
  3. Stonecutter
    Terradon

    Stonecutter Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    Without further information as to why or how your TG failed, it is difficult to really discuss the relative deficiencies of TG. However, many people, myself included, have found TG to be excellent troops that can decisively sway a battle. I'll discuss the pros & cons and then some application issues afterwards:

    PROS:

    1) stubborn & ITP with slaan on LD 9 cold blooded with re-roll - nearly imposible to break in combat so the unit must be ground down to the last TG standing in most cases. This makes them an excellent anvil unit.

    2) T4 - anyone with T3 troops knows what I mean. T4 troops survive most shooting and combat far better than T3 troops.

    3) Good armour save - 3+ vs shooting and 4+ in combat.

    4) Ability to take a magic banner - apart from the BSB, no other lizzie unit other than CoC can take a magic banner and there are several magic banners that are extremely useful.

    5) S5 & not striking last - there are very few rank and file troops in the game that have S5 that are not using great weapons. This allows TG to slaughter T3 troops and gives them a very good chance to wound T5/T6 troops - something that saurus have definite problems achieving. Toss in the AP banner and even 1+ cavalry will start dropping.

    6) Better WS & I than saurus warriors - not huge but definitely better.

    CONS:

    1) Expensive - 16 points/model. Definitely costly but not ridiculously so (think woodelf eternal guard @ 12 points each or wardancers for 18 each if you really want overpriced T3/S3 that die like flies).

    2) Non-elite stats - stats are not up there with most elite troops (WoC, elves, etc.).

    3) Relatively slow - slower than ogres or elves but on par with WoC.

    4) Infantry - subject to stomp & thunderstomp.

    USING TG:

    Given the pros & cons, TG can and often do perform extremely well in combat. The key is to get them in combats that are appropriate. For example, they are very good at tackling nearly any other infantry unit in the game other than a few elites such as white lions or halberd armed WoC. That being the case, use shooting/magic to deplete those elite units and/or send in the skinks to die to delay them. Similarly, tossing them at thunderstomping monsters is not a good idea when skrox will do a far better job and cannot be stomped. Aside from normal infantry, TG are very good at taking on regular cav since their ranks, S5 and slaan buffs can rapidly turn the tide in their favour, allowing them to send the cavalry fleeing. Even against ogre irongutz, a horde of TG can do very well since they hit & wound on 3s. For example, if each side has ~500 points in the unit, it will result in ~30 TG vs ~11 irongutz. Hitting on 3s & wounding on 3s means that ~5 irongutz will die before any strikes back and the hits back will drop ~14 TG (assuming 2 stomps & 4 impact hits get through). In the next round, the TG will drop ~4 irongutz while taking only 3-4 wounds in return - the irongutz will be ground to dust while a fair number of TG still remain.

    The important thing to keep in mind is what formation to adopt in order to optimize combat. If the TG have an advantage, then maximize contact whereas if they are going to lose and help is needed, minimize contact to keep them alive long enough for steggie/skrox to hit the flank of the enemy. Will TG win the battle all on their own - NO. However, lizzies have a lot of tools in the toolbox and TG, properly employed, are definitely one of them.
     
    discomute and Scalenex like this.
  4. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    Oh and don't forget that the TG champ can take one small magic item. ;)
     
  5. Qupakoco
    Skink Chief

    Qupakoco Keeper of the Dice Staff Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    +1 to Stonecutter. Yeah, TG with a Slann are amazing. Most people are jealous that we have access to them. If you are running them Slannless than yeah, they're just spendy Saurus.

    Also agreed, tell us how they aren't working for you and we'll help you make them better.
     
  6. Slanputin
    Carnasaur

    Slanputin Well-Known Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    Having something of a love affair with the Slann, I've never experienced TG free on the battlefield: most of mine tend to hang back from the main action whilst the Slann magics about.

    How inadequate are they?
     
  7. Clarkarias
    Skink

    Clarkarias New Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    I never had an issue with Temple Guard. They always proformed well on the field. The key is just like with regular Saurus - proper spell support. I find a Life Slann is key to a Temple Guard unit.

    That said, I love my lone Slann so it's been a while since the TG saw the table.
     
  8. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    Thanks guys.
    this particular anoyance came out of my long awaited game against WoC (easily the most overpowered army).
    I attribute the failure of the TG, and promptly thereafter, the Slann, to godawful rolls on my behalf, flawless rolls on his behalf and the fact that Chaos are virtually unbeatable in combat with their insane lords and demon princes.
    This case, 21 TG got destroyed before they could attack by bloodcrushers, lord and demon prince. Which is why they all died, then the remaining 4 and my scar vet were destroyed by stomps, leaving my slann to break from combat.

    My gripe is that TG are utter shit for special troops, especially when compared with chaos warriors (which is one of the most common armies I come up against).

    From here on in, the Slann will ride alone (unless I somehow have a spark of insanity and give them another chance to prove themselves!). But I still can't think of anything that can beat WoC - skinks blowpipes will get saved by armour, saurus all get killed before they strike. If i take Metal, i can kill his units, but can't buff mine, if I take Life, I can buff my units but can't kill his.
    !st world problems!
     
  9. Moniker
    Kroxigor

    Moniker Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    Salamanders!
     
  10. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    I thought so too... but I stuffed that up good and proper(also, I have never used them before)! they were too close and both copped charges. All in all, I was (and still am) very upset with how badly that battle turned out. I nearly got tabled.

    I maintain that the chaos spawns and monsters they have, which are unbreakable, should also be unstable.
    Another overpowered/undercosted aspect of Chaos...
     
  11. rychek
    Troglodon

    rychek Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    Sounds like you need to give the lore of light a try against Chaos. That can alleviate your dead before striking problems.
     
  12. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    Yeah, I used to use lore of light, but then I can't heal stuff like I can with Life. But I also want to kill stuff with metal.
    Like Natalie Imbruglia said, "I'm Torn"...
     
  13. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    It sounds silly but I only have problems with Temple Guard when they die to the last man. In a lot of cases I find myself wishing I could keep my Slann alive for one more turn. In a game of 2500 points I now aim to have 26 Temple Guard minimum in most cases. I don't stop adding TG with left over points till I hit 31. I kind of flinch when I see poster after poster using 16 or 20. If such tiny units work for you guys, I guess I can't fault it, but that would be unthinkable for me.
     
  14. Stonecutter
    Terradon

    Stonecutter Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    @Scalenex: While I also usually run a horde of TG, I think the number to be fielded is highly dependent on how and why players are fielding the TG. If the intended TG use is as a major combat block that will be an anvil/death star unit that is trying to get into combat, numbers are definitely needed. The TG must be robust enough to take on other hordes and have the ability to survive multiple combats during a game.

    On the other hand, some players use the TG as a support unit & protective bunker and are relying more heavily on magic and other units to achieve victory. As an example, fielding 16 TG with only standard & musician vs a 30+ unit with all the toys frees up enough points to field an ancient steg. Steggie can now hit the front of a unit and pin them while the TG move to a flank. Steggie holds and the TG charge in the next turn to give +5 static res to start and minimize the number of models striking back at the unit. Odds are that the opposing unit will be broken and only a couple TG will die (hopefully).

    Either approach will work but as I tend to follow the axiom of having my slaan "lead from the front", I definitely fall into the category of TG horde-meister :D
     
  15. Animaux
    Saurus

    Animaux New Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    i run a 23 strong temple guard unit ive found taking light and getting the -1 to hit us makes it very hard for WOC to win combat and if your lucky enough to get ws10 int 10 as well your temple guard will chomp through them easy note that i think sacrificing a champion to there enevitable challenge is proberly worth the gods roll they can get just to keep more of our precious temple guard alive to keep our slann safe
     
  16. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    I wouldn't say WoC are totally overpowered, but they are a tough matchup for Lizardmen. The army is designed around just pushing everything forward and smashing head-on, and if you try to play the same kind of game against them you will likely lose.

    A lot depends on what lore your Slann is wielding. Metal is a decent lore against them, for outright damage potential. Light helps you strike first, but it doesn't help you cut through all that armor. Beasts might be an ok choice, the signature spell works great on TG/saurus and the character buffing spells make scar-vets into death machines. And of course, there's always the old reliable Shadows, MINDRAZOR ftw.
     
  17. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    @stonecutter
    You make a good point re purpose of TG. I never thought of them as a non-heavy combat unit. I actually think I might give them a try as a support unit and hang them back, use them for picking off the easy units or flank charges.
    Though I'm still torn on the Lore to take. Life, Light or Metal. If I'm going to make a comp list I'd probably say Life as it is useful in alot more situations than Metal. And my Oldblood doesn't have enough defensive items to keep him alive if i get very bad rolls (again), so being able to heal characters/stegadons is a good thing.

    @Caneghem
    True, but the lizardmen are designed for that as well, unless I use skinks, but skinks are close to useless against high armour things. Perhaps a tactical move of holding back a turn would be beneficial...
     
  18. carno
    Skink

    carno New Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    I have to agree with you, WOC are pretty overpowed. Not as much as DE though. :D

    While I don't have much experience, I would say to eather buff them with light, revive them with life or kill those chaos with the nice lore called metal. :walkingdead:
     
  19. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    @carno
    Yeah DE got made overpowered when GWS realised they gimped their last book, to make up for it!
     
  20. carno
    Skink

    carno New Member

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    Re: how do you all deal with the inadequacies of temple guar

    WOC however, have less reason to be overpowered. :jawdrop:
     

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