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AoS Kroak van cast celestial deliverence 3 Times (for now)

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by Ecozh, Jun 27, 2018.

  1. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Sorry to continue the derailment, but I see it like @Putzfrau
    This is a game. Everything allowed by the game rules should be OK to do. Those who make the rules are responsible for that.

    It is like that in every sport and every other game. Playing to win, even to win at all costs (within the rules), especially within a tournament environment, is something that should be allowed and encouraged. Nobody who takes part in a game, especially one about war, should be made responsible for playing to win as long as they do so by the rules.

    The game mode with points is specifically made and advertised to be balanced. If you play that game mode the goal is to win the game. So no, what the players did in the tournament was not abusing the rules, but doing exactly what they were supposed to do.

    I have said it over at TGA and I will say it here: we should be thankful that events like that exist so early after release of the new rules. They allow the competitive players to min-max the heck out of the game and find all the holes GW left with their incomplete playtesting so they can be fixed, improving the game for us all.
     
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  2. Putzfrau
    Bastiladon

    Putzfrau Active Member

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    I will say, fingers crossed there's nothing official done without a little bit of time under 2.0's belt. It'll be interesting to see what, if there is one, kind of strategy develops to combat the mass-summoning seraphon lists.

    I
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  3. HolySalad
    Skink

    HolySalad Member

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    Just read through the posts (there was another one posted today where a summoning kroak list was beaten in the 6N) and it seems to be split on whether or not EoTG and kroak are broken. To me it soundsike rippers are a bigger issue along with command point stacking.

    Just make EoTG a unique unit?

    Why shouldn't out one single named unit be powerful?
     
  4. Mormblwka
    Saurus

    Mormblwka Member

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    EoTG is not broken. Chances of rolling this high are not that big. And you have to invest in summoning heavily in order to summon effectively. In 2000 pts game Kroak costs you almost 25% of your roster, 2 EoTG is already 50% of your army. That is a lot. Kroaknado was nerfed with changes to balewind vortex. Is he still good? Sure, but he cost a lot.


    On the other hand, Rippers are utterly broken and I beleive everyone including GW see it this way and will fix it with the next FAQ/Errata
     
  5. HolySalad
    Skink

    HolySalad Member

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  6. Putzfrau
    Bastiladon

    Putzfrau Active Member

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    I don't remember Rippers being mentioned, but command point stacking was mentioned repeatedly. Seems like theres some moonclaw goblin combination that allows for some pretty dirty command ability abuse, but I was having trouble following the details.

    Regardless, time will tell. I think making EoTG unique is probably the only thing that needs to be done to that unit to bring it in line.
     
  7. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Yeah there was a single Grot that did 64 damage or something. :D
     
  8. Putzfrau
    Bastiladon

    Putzfrau Active Member

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    Just curious what you're basing your opinion that on. It feels like the general vibe has been pretty unanimous, so definitely interested in another POV.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  9. Tokek
    Cold One

    Tokek Active Member

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    In a no holds barred tournament such as the 6 nations I completely agree with you. In a small local tournament in your FLGS that is a bit more questionable and depends on how hard-core your local player base is. In a random pick-up game against a stranger i would suggest it is appropriate only when agreed between the players.

    Context is everything. There is a social contract that underlies everything and is more important than rules written on pages.

    We should also remember that the 6 nations was a bit of an odd format. Some crazy things have a fairly obvious counter but if that is limited to one player per team then you can avoid it with the pairings in a way that you never could in a singles tournament. I broadly agree with most of the suggestions going the rounds to calm down the crazy stuff in the game but we should not think that 6 nations was a definitive statement of broken stuff - t will have missed some things and it will have apparently highlighted others which can be dealt with in more normal formats or just because players are now more aware of what it does and how to play against it.
     
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  10. Seraphage
    Stegadon

    Seraphage Well-Known Member

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    No offense but I am still not quite sure yet how the whole internet knows THAT well how imbalanced is something in a new edition :p

    Have all of us really tried ALL the scenarios with the majority of the other armies WITH the endless spells included - used by players that totally understand all the synergies of the new version and thus make the best out of it or is it just something new that inexperienced players cannot play against it yet and we' re hammering a change based on casual playing ? :D

    As with SCE for example, that most people discuss how imbalanced they are and yet if we exclude that one batallion with the 30 man Liberators, no SCE could perform above average in my meta which is pretty pretty rough :p
     
  11. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Imbalanced and strong isn't necessarily the same. SCE are... weird. They have some crazy imbalanced stuff and they have some very mediocre stuff, which makes them kinda... strong and weal at the same time.

    But back to Kroak et al: I think the reason why we don't have to check in every situation is just math. The average values look pretty menacing already, and the anecdotal evidence (the only one we have so far) seems to confirm that fear. If something can realistically put out 50+ mortal wounds per turn, and peak over 100 per turn, then it is pretty darn strong. It also doesn't depend on many factors, and that is what points to the possible conclusion that it will be strong regardless of the environment.
    If it is _too_ strong is what is hard to tell and we will probably need some time to find out. My current view on it is that it probably is.
     
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  12. Draconder
    Saurus

    Draconder Active Member

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    Real quick but regards to Ripperdactyl Riders would this rule apply to their extra attacks? It is in the warscrolls section of the core rules.

    IMG_20180712_114545.JPG
     
  13. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    No as warscroll abilities over ride core rules ;)
     
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  14. Draconder
    Saurus

    Draconder Active Member

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    Even if this rule is in the Warscrolls chapter is covering Abilities section? This is quite a paradox.
     
  15. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Yeah I think they originally intended that rule to take precendence over warscrolls but then at some point added the other paragraph that reversed it and they forgot about Rippers. I expect a warscroll fix for Rippers because of that soon.
     
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  16. Taipan
    Temple Guard

    Taipan Member

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    Engine isn't broken by any stretch. It's an okay monster that sometimes does awesome things. The free summons are inferior to the conjuration IMO, it's either more chaff or more harassment (whereas with conjuration, you can summon actual threats). Even with Slann nearby, it's entirely possible you'll just do some random MW or heal some of the time (which may or may not be worth its points). If they made it unique it wouldn't make much sense, it's not a character (and there are fluff pieces describing entire formations of Engines purging Daemons).

    With Kroak, maybe reduce Deliverance to 2 times max, and up the casting cost to 8 and 9 (Astrolith+Sage Staff constellation make the current casting cost trivial). You could also simply prevent him using Spellportal to arc his spell, which at least forces the player to commit to a double teleport (and the associated risks). Currently, you can put him behind a Palisade/LOS blocking terrain and just arc it into enemy lines from complete safety.
     
  17. Putzfrau
    Bastiladon

    Putzfrau Active Member

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    Seraphon only need to ever summon skinks which EOTG does better than conjuration. EOTG can also summon rippers, which is basically all you'll ever need. Rippers or skinks.

    Also, it's not really an either/or scenario. You'll have both in your army.

    EOTG gives you a ~40% chance (when all things considered) on bringing in 120 free points a turn. And when you have 4 of them, i can understand how it gets oppressive quickly.

    Do you have experience playing with it?
     
  18. Taipan
    Temple Guard

    Taipan Member

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    Well considering in my 'low infantry' list I'm still taking 40 of them, nah I'm pretty sure Skinks aren't always the best option. They're really good chaff, but they can't kill or tie up anything for long (especially not the 10-20 strong summon units, they'll die really fast). Rippers are also not always the best option, screening properly defeats them from hitting anything valuable. Sometimes you might be better off summoning a ranged threat, which Engines can't do (unless you consider blowpipes or javelins scary).

    I have an Engine in every list. I'm just pointing out mindless spamming them isn't IMO the best idea. That's nearly half your list gone on four models. 1-2 is probably ideal. It's a random roll every time, you are just as likely to do nothing (ie heal when you're not damaged, or do the AOE blast but hit nothing). Ideally you hit laser or summon, but it won't be every time, even with 4. Slann conjuration is way more 'oppressive' by your logic, because it's foolproof and you can choose from a wider array of units, plus its cumulative. Four Engines don't fit any of the battalions either (maybe Draco Tail), so you'll be going second a lot, which risks losing some early (plenty of armies can push 10 wounds past a 4+ save, even with a chaff wall).

    Not spamming 4 haha, I take one. I've only played Thunderquake so far, so one is all I need for the battalion. Working on my Fangs list atm, and then Draco Tail next. Even if it turns out to be 'the best' Seraphon list, I'm still not really interested in playing four Engines as an army core.
     
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  19. Seraphage
    Stegadon

    Seraphage Well-Known Member

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    @Taipan couldn't agree more with most of the points.

    Everyone is focusing on the good points of the 4 EotGs and not the 880 points spent into 4model count that can die easily, escalate moderately *badly compared to other behemoths like the Dragonlords* and also have the randonmness.

    Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea, it's just that it's far from overpowered.
     
  20. Putzfrau
    Bastiladon

    Putzfrau Active Member

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    I'd suggest trying it out. Don't need 4, but make EOTGs the core of your army and really lean into how abusive you can make them. We should start collecting experience to really get a clear idea of how it plays.



    Skinks don't kill things, they sit on objectives. Fortunately, you have rippers, engines, and kroak (to do mortal wounds, or his own summoning) to kill things.

    If you don't think EOTG is "too good", that's totally your prerogative. I'd suggest sharing your experience and maybe trying out what 2 or even 3 starts to do to the game.

    Since there does seem to be some differing opinions on this stuff, I' think it would be really cool if this sub starting compiling some of the experiences people were actually having with this stuff.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2018
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