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AoS Lord Kroak Power Level

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by DeathBringer125, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. Galen
    Saurus

    Galen Active Member

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    Nope, the Mortal Realms coalesced into being from the remnants of the World That Was. As you said you didn't follow AoS lore, this little video from GW is a handy and quick guide to the Mortal Realms:

    As to the question of power level, it's important to note that gods in AoS aren't impossibly powerful. Sigmar was unable to withstand the forces of Chaos and had to retreat to Azyr after losing Ghal Maraz. Slaanesh, a Chaos god and unquestionably one of the most powerful beings in existence, was imprisoned by Teclis and Tyrion. Shyish is invaded by Chaos during the Age of Chaos and Nagash is actually slain by Archaon at the Battle of the Black Skies. His mortarchs recover his body and transport it to Stygxx where he regenerates over the course of centuries before he returns and drives Chaos out of Shyish. So the fact that Nagash is a god isn't a de facto indication of power level. Archaon is not a god, and he slew Nagash.

    Furthermore, when Nagash sees the culmination of his grand plan during the Time of Tribulation, he's not doing it all based around his own power. Nagash has been transporting the realmstone of Shyish from the edge of the Realm, where it's typically found in the greatest concentration, and bringing it to the centre of the Realm in order to invert the flow of magic across all of Shyish. His own magics are what raises up the great pyramids that eventually form the nexus of inversion, but it's quite clear that this is no simple divine act where he can simply snap his fingers and everything falls into place. It's a vast effort brought about primarily by the endless labour of countless numbers of undead workers.

    Now, in contrast to this, we have Kroak. Little has been written in AoS about the last remaining First Generation Slann, which is a pity since the Seraphon have some very interesting fluff in AoS. But there's some intriguing snippets as to his power in our Battletome:

    So from this we know that Kroak is the most powerful of those Slann that have died yet clung onto existence. The second quote however is very interesting. What it implies is that the Slann have increased in power since fleeing the World That Was, thanks to being saturated in the power of Azyr during their long journey across the cosmos. Those Slann that have died but remained in existence have become creatures of celestial magic, and it would be a fair assumption that they have a greater level of saturation than a mortal Slann; indeed, Kroak is described as being "filled with the light of Azyr". With this in mind, Kroak's powers have almost certainly increased since leaving the World That Was, and given he was one of the most powerful magic users ever to exist on that world, his powers now would have to be truly immense.

    That being said, the issue we have is that we simply have no bar to place Kroak against because of the paucity of fluff featuring him. One snippet in a Battletome that describes him as being awesome is hardly enough to form a definitive judgement of how strong he is; Battletomes, Army Books and Codices always present the characters within them as immensely powerful.
     
  2. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    Hmmm yeah the thing with the gods in Warhammer is that they seem to be more like Norse gods or Greek gods, as in they can occasionally be defeated and especially outsmarted by (powerful or very smart) mortals, in contrast to the gods in christianity and other religions that are literally all-knowing and alllmighty so they always win except against each other (if there is such a thing as more than one god in that pantheon).
     
  3. Canas
    Skink Priest

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Given that the old ones don't seem to actually be around anymore I wouldn't count em.

    As for the chaos gods, the reason I'd currently give Kroak an edge is that Kroak survived the end times basicly unharmed, the chaos gods didn't. It took a while before the chaos gods were up and about again. Similarly Sigmar seemed to be quite shaken from the end times while Kroak and his fellow slanns merely continued doing whatever it is they do nowadays in their space ships. The main issue is that beyond being the only real survivors of the world that was we haven't really done anything, and the few fluff pieces of a slann or seraphon actually doing something are unimpressive to say the least... Right now the most influence we have had are some throw away sentences along the lines of "And then a slann showed up with his army and murdered a bunch of daemons" or "And then the temple guard stood guard for a millenia and when the slann finally awoke everything was littered with the corpses of those trying to test their might against the mythical guards". And even those bits of fluff lack detail as they never state how vital the thing the seraphon did there was.
     
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  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Awesome, thanks. Not a big fan of Aos, so I know precious little about it.

    Kroak's strength has definitely gone through major fluctuations across time. He was immensely strong while alive in the old world. After his death his spirit had only a fraction of the magical ability that he had in life (as per the 8th edition AB). And now, as you presented, he has become stronger during his voyage across the stars. It's difficult to say exactly how powerful he is now. Our analysis is further hindered by the fact that the Seraphon have a lesser role in AoS fluff.


    My sentiments exactly.
     
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  5. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Salamander

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

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    I can't seem to find it, but I think I remember some early AOS story about kroak pretty much blocking off Nugrle's infulence from a planet (or some such), making the stars as a grinning frog and annihilating every daemon.

    Also since we know so little about the old ones and first gen. slann anyway, who is to say that the first gen. slann aren't actually the old ones. Especially as the slann just make their own armies as they dream up the lizardmen in AOS, and it seems as though they can live on after the slann, so the slann are essentially creating life.
    Also we are the only race to not get too affected by the worlds destruction, and seems to always be the thing in the background making everything possible for the other order armies.
    Furthermore the slann shaped the old fantasy world by moving continents, so who is to say that it wasn't slann who did that in the first place.

    I'm not sure Nagash actually created necromancy, but maybe I'm wrong. I would think it is more just a different way of using magic, and the different lores is just a way to categorize the stuff. Maybe necromancy just wasn't something the old ones fancied and so the slann did not use it and as such it was not taught to the elves, and thereby to no other race.
     
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  6. Zunhs
    Skink

    Zunhs New Member

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    When my brother said he would begin with Legions of Nagash I immediately started a seraphon army led by Lord Kroak. Lord Kroak seemed to be the natural answer to the threat of Nagash.
     
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  7. Zlaanante
    Jungle Swarm

    Zlaanante Member

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    You are referring to Beneath the Black Thumb. Something I had to make an account solely to mention, because it is an essential read for this topic without a doubt. Basically, to spoil you all since we're already muddying across this topic:
    Lord Kroak's host invades a ritual conducted by one of Nurgle's favoured champions in the Realm of Life, a ritual concerning the local realm gate. During said event, a bunch of skaven go into a panic at just the sight of the Lizardmen, far before Kroak even shows up. However the true display starts when the starts realign from their prior alignment, and soon to follow, meteors start hurling from the skies, devastating the chaos warband.
    The Chaos Champion looks for Nurgle's guidance, and sees a vision of the chaos god, with eye-rich tendrils around a shrouded form. However that form, what is basically Nurgle intimately conducting his will towards a favoured champion, is incinerated by the radiant presence of Kroak as he hovers forward upon his Palanquin, his light taking its toll on the champion as well.
    Moreover, the Champion is first terrified, then enraged, as he looks to the Realm-Gate and sees that it no longer leads to where it once did, as if something had forcibly redirected it. Something that is stated to be a godlike act.

    I don't know whether Nagash can manipulate Realmgates at his whim, or blind a chaos deity. But as we can only expect from the Deliverer of Itza himself, for whom the fabric of reality is but clay by the portrayal of the old army books, Lord Kroak is not just a named Lord of a side-army in one of the greater factions. Considering how godly he used to be, and how the time following the End Times affected the other Slann, the level at which dead(As long as he wants to be) Kroak is, is probably really really stupid. He may as well be equal of Tepok and Potec combined at this point whenever he wants to be.

    As for Nagash in comparison. Being a fail at plotting, having your ritual fucked up immensely by a pack of stray rats, and getting punted into the ground by an emo Ex-Knight of Sigmar on a roided Chimera. As such, my money are on the Toad of death-defying willpower, who has more than a single universe within his life time. Maybe even more than that. Which leads to the question. Was the Serpent on his Standard really Sotek, and was Sotek actually Dracothion? If anyone knows, its Kroak at least.
     
  8. LizardWizard
    Skar-Veteran

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    Welcome to Lustria.

    Thanks for making an account to share with us.
     
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  9. Zlaanante
    Jungle Swarm

    Zlaanante Member

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    Thank you! Been watching for a while.
     
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  10. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Truly interesting considerations.
    Tnx for sharing them, and welcome aboard :)
     
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  11. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    Welcome, and thanks for your awesome first post! :)
     
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  12. Zlaanante
    Jungle Swarm

    Zlaanante Member

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    Further notes on this topic. (Because I think about Lizardmen far more than I should) During the Defense and following Deliverance of Itza, living Lord Kroak, (although considering he can will himself to life the distinction might be redundant) managed to fight against the hordes of Chaos with a single-handed display of power, that is pretty much unrivalled in Warhammer Fantasy and Age of Sigmar, possibly even 40k. This is at least true, as long you discount the unshown potential of cosmic forces, like Dracothion.

    Comparing what he actually did and the scale of it, what with the size of the Chaos forces during the Great Catastrophe, he far outmatched even AoS Nagash by miles. Think of how he started devastated the daemons by warping spacetime at his will, only being destroyed by 6 severely warded and buffed Bloodthirsters, only to then incinerate all that remained of the daemons with his unwavering spirit. Then think of how Nagash got beaten up by Archaeon and some Khorne-y aid of his. This difference between original Kroak, and current Nagash, combined with what was shown in Beneath the Black Thumb, -and- the fact that the Slann became more powerful from their stay within outer space, means that Kroak probably still surpasses pretty much the entire competition, the thing keeping him from applying it being his absence from the story. Although in my opinion, GW may be keeping him a bit too absent for anyone's good.
     
  13. Canas
    Skink Priest

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    There's no such thing as thinking too much on this topic :p

    To be honest, at this point Kroak rivals, or even surpasses, the chaos gods themselves. Even the weakest slann can will entire legions into existence with a mere thought, legions capable of going head to head with anything any of the other factions can throw at them, from lowly grot to mighty bloodthirster, seraphon have killed them all. And Kroak is supposed to be magnitudes more powerfull than a mere slann. Sheer summoning power alone should allow him to basicly crush any enemy he'd find against him, and then he hasn't even started to do anything special for a slann. Or for another massive feat, the slanns where the ones keeping the armies of order alive while walking through the realm of death near their realmstone. And that realmstone just flat out destroys anything that comes near it. To the point that even Nagash's undead hosts could only carry 1 grain of sand at a time. And their undead and have a natural protection against it. Yet the slann were powerfull enough to contain that destructive energy. I don't think there's any other example of the ridiculous destructiveness that is concentrated realmstone being contained anywhere… and that's still just regular slann..

    And I think that's also the reason why we're relativly absent in all the lore and only mentioned in vague throw-away sentences. Cannonicly even our weakest slann should be able to win virtually any campaign against virtually any "normal" opponent, the only ones who'd stand a chance of beating them in a fair fight would be the leaders of the various factions, e.g. a chaos army without support from greater daemons should just be ground to dust with relative ease. And that's just with the weakest of slann. Kroak being leagues beyond mere slann should (based on the fluff) barely even notice his opponents putting up a fight unless he's personally fighting the chaos gods themselves, and even then I wouldn't put it beyond him stomp them in the right circumstances…

    I think what we need is for slann to get clear limits. Right now even the weakest is a god in their own right being able to summon literal legions at a whim. And the only creatures apparantly capable of managing the raw power of undiluted realmstone on their own. There's literally noone who compares. And they can't even touch Kroak… fluff-wise we should be unstoppable :p
     
  14. Zlaanante
    Jungle Swarm

    Zlaanante Member

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    All as it should be. Nothing may stop the new plan. :D
     
  15. Womboski
    Saurus

    Womboski Active Member

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    I think comparing what army books they "birthed" is not a good indication of their "power". I think we are all biased about Slann lol. That being said Seraphon are responsible for every single battletome(outside of chaos and I guess deepkin). Don't forget who protected and created the environment for the fantasy races to develop and eventually become the AoS races. That's right the Slann with the guidance of the Old Ones. Without Slann one could argue humans dwarfs alves would of died out long before the end of the universe.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
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  16. Zlaanante
    Jungle Swarm

    Zlaanante Member

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    To go further on that point(Literature spoiler ahead), I think we should get the perspective from a champion of a Chaos god, and also analyse how Lord Kroak greets the old green slime lad while devastating his worshippers. Since I've brought it up in this thread when it was more active, I feel like I might as well show some of the material. Most important for evaluation of it: Keep in mind that Kroak is still very much his usual mummy-self at this point. Was he to look around one morning and decide to start being alive again, things would definitely escalate exponentially once again.


    "Fury returned to him redoubled. Disbelief. It was not mere bad fortune that had brought the seraphon upon him with the aligning stars. They had come for his realmgate.


    Somehow they had manipulated the Eightpoints to change its destination. How? The magic involved in enacting such a feat was godlike!


    The apparition(Nurgle watching) hissed in sudden distress. Its cloak shimmered with many colours, every eye tightening shut as though simultaneously blinded. And then in a searing moment of universal light, it was gone.

    ‘Grandfather!’ Bule cried, light like a fire in his eyes. ‘Aid me!’


    Shading his eyes with one heavy arm, he peered into the oncoming host.

    Floating on a cushion of force above the golden spears of its warriors came the source of the light. It was as if a star had been called down from the heavens and condensed into a brittle caul of bone-brown wrappings and dry flesh.


    Its presence alone was massive. From its palanquin, the mummified creature regarded the battle with the distant disinclination of an inhuman god."


    “Instinctively, Bule understood that here came a being that had known power long before some daemons had even come to be.

    He felt himself drawn spiritually towards it, the golden funerary mask that picked out its amphibian features in jewels swelling to fill his mind as the universe subtly reordered around it.

    It made no word or gesture, but somewhere in the cosmos something gave.

    The heavens opened.

    Bule howled impotent fury as the stars glimmered and fell, plucked from the sky, and smashed into his horde.”
     
  17. Just A Skink
    Chameleon Skink

    Just A Skink Well-Known Member

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    I remember choosing the Lizardmen as my army back in WHFB, and then reading their book. When I found out how old GW had made them, and the power they controlled, I couldn't help but think how cool that was.

    I think it would be VERY interesting if, as a new piece of fluff and story arc for the Seraphon, Lord Kroak sort of "resurrected" himself. Even if he has to use a lot of power to do so. Just the idea that he could do that would be great. Maybe then, GW would have an updated (i.e. plastic) Lord Kroak kit.
     
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  18. ILKAIN
    Terradon

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    idk if id like a living Kroak from a player standpoint (lore would be awesome). right now he effectively has 9 wounds, and instant death immunity. I don't like the nerf he got to his damage output (especially at no reduction in point cost) but I do like his survivability. side note... learned the hard way that leadership reducing effects WRECK him lol due to basically being the only single model unit that takes a form of battleshock lol
     
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  19. LizardWizard
    Skar-Veteran

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    This depends on the specific wording of bravery impacting abilities. Many of them only work for battleshock and wouldn't affect him. What happened with your Kroak?
     
  20. ILKAIN
    Terradon

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    I may have done it wrong then, he leadership was reduced causing the die roll to meet his leadership value. it was a while ago so I don't recall the effect or model, just the instance lol
     
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