8th Ed. My Christmas present (if you want it) a new Army Book!

[Tlaloc of Xhotl]

Hey my fellow scaly friends.

Like many people I was disappointed in the new army book when it came out back in the summer and after a while I realised that as I wasn't actually playing fantasy at the moment, I may as well write my own version of the army book and pretend that it was real until we get something more uplifting.

Anyway to cut a long story shorter, I have rewritten the game related part of the book (Army rules, Unit entries, Army List etc) although I am still working on Magic Items, Disciplines and Special Characters.

It is by no means an actual playable list yet but I might play-test it with some friends and tweak rules and points until it feels balanced but for now I would like to offer it up to you to:

a) See what you think

b) Offer constructive feedback

c) Enjoy

but my key question is...would anyone actually be interested?

Much Chrimbo love, Tlaloc

 

[Tlaloc of Xhotl]

Here is the book so far: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BysRRPYFoHOWTDhqSFUtWkZsSWc/edit?usp=sharing

EDIT: Although the formatting I spent ages on in word has gone so apologies if entries run over onto the next page

 

[Mr Phat]

while I like the additions / changes you made (especially the troglodon and the obvious addition of Sacred Spawnings) and while I really REALLY appreciate the thought behind this, you must understand that the target group for this is probably pretty limited.

I for one would love to play with some of these things the way you put them on paper, but it wouldn't work since I would meet the following problems:

- I play "out of house" too, meaning I wouldnt be able to use this at a tournament
- Because of me playing out of house I would get used to the wrong rules and probably get worse at tournament play, as my units would behave differently.
- I wouldn't get to play with this in the first place, even when in-house as my playgroup is pretty competitive and very centered on the ACTUAL rules.
(an example: we had a long long LONG discussion on the PF subject, not because I wanted it to work with sup-ranks, but because we all wanted to be absolutely certain that everything we did worked according to the rules.)

I can understand you doing this for fun though as I am also working on a "new book" for lizardmen players, but that will not work as a substitute for the current book but rather a whole new book with completly new units who can either be played as a stand-alone army or as a supplement to the current LM-book (working on rulings for this).

If you made an entirely NEW book, sure, I would present it to the guys and take it for a spin or two but as this is more patchwork on the actual book (however how nice it actually looks to me) I am afraid that it wouldnt work out on my part

but one thing is certain: Intent of this present is well received! hope you have a nice holiday mate, and may I encourage you to make some of those new units into unofficial "battlescrolls" instead ? might be easier to implement into friendly games!

 

[Pinktaco]

I don't entirely agree with everything. I find the sacred spawnings to be too good. For instance; give a hero the stubborn spawning and plop him in a guard unit for unbreakable. Now combine that with giving the guards the frenzy spawning on a horde. You've now made the skavenpelt banner useless for half the price. Give your guards the AP banner along with a scar vet with armour of destiny and GW and a champion and we have

- stubborn
- Frenzy (Ld 8 Cold Blooded)
- Amour Piercing
- Horde = 33 attacks from the front row, 20 from the other ranks = 53 attacks.
- Your PF = 8,48 additional attakcs ~ 61,48 attacks.
- Trog PF = 17,49 additional attacks ~ 70,49 attacks.

40 templeguards w/ frenzy = 16pts/model = 640pts
1 scar vet w/ stubborn = 105pts, w/ items = 159pts
With command groupd total price is = 874

If we play by the current book we have we need to spend 1159pts and still not have the improved PF. So with your book we save 285pts and get a vastly superior units.

And sure almost 900pts for a death star is a lot of points, but we can save 200pts by removing the scar vet and the AP banner. we still have a sick unit which will only cost us 670pts.

Obviously the Trog needs to be added, but if you have the trog it's not just out guards who benefit from this. We can have an expensive heavy hitting army that can use poison on 5+ and have frenzy on a lot of models + PF so they'll murder whatever they get in contact with. A horde of spear saurus with frenzy and champion have 61 attacks add another 10 attacks from regular predatory fighter and 20 from the boosted version. Imagine any play who can field T3 units? They'd have to hope their armour save can help them from 26 wounds lol. And that's just our regular saurus.

8 (4 wide) kroxigors + champion with your PF and frenzy = 29 S7 attacks + PF ~ 4,5/9,5 additional attacks so almost 40 S7 attacks + 4 S5 stomps.

We might as well play WoC at this point. Which leads me to... What is with the new monstrous cavalry option? We just got a new MC toy to play with and I sincerely doubt you've seen what these can do if you feel the need to add MORE heavy hitting stuff.

I don't want to sound too harsh on you and I can why you want sacred spawnings back, but I also believe they were removed because, compared to 6th edition, our models have continously been improved so that we don't need it. It's a great idea, really, but when you add the rest it just becomes too much.

One last thing - I don't think our slann should be lvl 5 as default. Have it as a discipline if anything (50pts), but if the entry point for our slann is 385pts I fear it's just too much.

what I do like is:

- The PF improved PF rule, but just not with added special sauce (spawnings).
- New light cav in core.
- High Priest (although I think it would be fair for him to also have access to high magic).

Hmm.. Ok this is my last thing:

- I still think the COR are a missed opportunity. Bump them back to 30pts, but let them have spears as default. Give the ability to give them heavy armour (3pts) and a halbard (2pts). It gives us several options - 30pts/model with spear, 33pts/model with AS1+ (and still spear) or the more expensive model for 35pts/model with halbard and AS2+(AS1+ against shooting).

I think one of the worst offenders is that we currently have to pay for our spears. I don't think we need lances (it just doesn't fit in), but a halbard would make them more in line with our templeguards instead of this odd mix between regular warriors and guards that they are now.

 

[Tlaloc of Xhotl]

while I like the additions / changes you made (especially the troglodon and the obvious addition of Sacred Spawnings) and while I really REALLY appreciate the thought behind this, you must understand that the target group for this is probably pretty limited.

I know this won't be possible for some people. I never play competitively so it doesn't matter for me It is still a work in progress but due to time constraints it won't be finished for some time Thanks for the feedback!

I don't entirely agree with everything. I find the sacred spawnings to be too good. For instance; give a hero the stubborn spawning and plop him in a guard unit for unbreakable. Now combine that with giving the guards the frenzy spawning on a horde. You've now made the skavenpelt banner useless for half the price.

I'm not sure if you've understood the way the spawnings work.

For the hero to be unbreakable it needs to be a sacred army. For it to be a sacred army all units need to have the same sacred spawning so the TG would need to have the SS of Tlazcotl.

So

40 TG w/ Halberd + command + Razor banner + Trog would be...

40*15 + 40*3 + 30 + 45 +210 = 600 + 120 + 285 = 1005 pts for...

Unbreakable
(without trog charge) average 48 S5 AP attacks (still need to roll to hit though)
(with trog charge) average 55 S5 AP attacks (still need to roll to hit)

I'm not sure what you mean by the new monster unit, as monstrous cavalry would serve a vastly different role. It just fits for a dino-based army in my mind As we didn't get carno riders as MC I though Pachasophalus would be a new way to expand the army.

Having Slann at lvl 5 is a fluff based decision. They are meant to be the most powerful casters in the entire world. They have lived for millennia, moving the continents, raising mountains, changing the courses of rivers, banishing hosts of demons and greater demons... yet they are the same power as a 40 year old empire wizard. :/
They are even weaker than Teclis and a few other Special Chars.
There is an option in the BRB for Book of Ashur to make casters level 5 so I decided that having them base level 5 wasn't inconceivable. That's why I added the option for a high priest, so if you weren't playing a game where you could fit in a new slann you could still have a lvl 4. I also didn't give the lvl 4 access to high magic as that would then give them access to all BRB lores which they don't currently have so that would raise the question of why they can't use other lores normally.

Lastly with Saurus cav, no unit in the army has access to heavy armour so I didn't want to make an exception. The option for the heavier hitting cavalry is there with the new Pachasophalus who have S5 mounts with impact hits and the riders can upgrade to halberds.
(also just noticed the stats for the Pachasophalus riders came out wrong :s the riders should be equal to TG sats! Not all 4s or all 3s )

Edit: I don't think I made the rules for spawings and and armies clear enough in my file.

The army ability on the SS chart is only applicable if it is a Sacred Army.
To be a sacred army ALL units capable of having a sacred spawning must have the same sacred spawning. This means, taking Sotek for an example. All Saurus characters, Skink characters, Saurus, Skinks and Kroxigor need to have the SS of Sotek.

When those units have the SS of Sotek they would gain the frenzy rule. But if it fulfills the criteria for a sacred army (at least 3 units have the SS of Sotek, all eligible units take SS of Sotek and at least half the points of the army are spent on SS of Sotek units) then
-Every unit in the army would gain the POISON special rule, unless they already have it whereby they would gain the ability to poison on a 5+, raher than a 6+.

 

[Pinktaco]

Hm no, I still don't think it's a good idea like this. I appreciate the effort, but I just have another opinion.

the unbreakable part was a mistake which i halfway corrected by stating what a unit would get (lol).

I am to understand that the "spawning ability" is something you grant a unit/character for a certain amount of points right? The army ability is when all units have the same. I get that. Correct, right?

My point is that you can basically make an entire army frenzy, a hero can take up to two so he can always be stubborn + frenzy. This way we can have just give any monsters in the game the middle finger with 5+ poison javelins/cameleon skinks.

What breaks the game IMO is when you can:

1) Give frenzy to 40 saurus for 80pts, close to the skavenpelt banner (making it quite useless) and add PF. It give any of our models an insane amount of attacks.
2) Give any of our units stubborn for no points. I mean, you pay 35pts for crown of command and we can get that 15 (skink character I assume) or 25 for our saurus.

When a character with stubborn joins a unit he give that unit stubborn. So even though each model in a army will be more expensive than they currently are, they'll also put out A LOT of attacks and we can easily have them be stubborn for added lulz

Unless I've completely missed the idea with your spawnings and what I just wrote makes no sense I think you should consider to redo them, at least some of them.

I like sacred spawnings because they can add something extra, but back when they used to give an extra attack I'm also fairly certain that our saurus models only came with 1 attack to begin with, giving them 3 attacks + improved PF is too much, so how about:

- Sotek: every model from this spawning (with the PF special rule) can generate an extra PF attack on a 5+, instead of 6+. Army special rule?? Maybe just the poison thingy.

- Tiazcotl: every model from this spawning gains +1 Ld. Army special rule: every character gains stubborn.

Now we need to something about the Trogs roar - maybe remove the rule that allows every model to have PF in second and other ranks and have the Trogs roar allow them to do this, so:

- The roar from the Troglodon enable every model with the PF in other ranks to also gain an additional attack, even though they normally wouldn't due to the BRB.

Maybe word the above a bit better lol.

So now I've eliminated some of the things that I thought was too much.

Extra Ld isn't overpowered (IMO) and just giving our characters stubborn sort of limits it. Also it now requires us to go all in in order to have the stubborn special rule so it doesn't interfere with Crown of Command.

Gaining PF on a 5+ from the front row can be decent alone and isn't downright OP because unlike frenzy it doesn't automatically give us more attacks. changing the trogs roar to what I wrote can give us a one time F*CK YOU which is now better than we can do with our current book, but it's not OP due to the price of the trog, being one time use only and because it's limited in range AFAIK.

I still think the slann should be level 4 and can have a discipline to give him level 5. Think about it. 50pts? It's cheaper than the book and it doesn't take up our arcane item slot. Something which you didn't mention. Hell, you can potentially make a level 6 with this in mind or just go with level 5 discipline + the +2 channel attempt and channel staff. Others can't do that.

You can just name the discipline sometihng like "generation 2 slann" or something like that. It would make sense lore wise since we have slanns from various generations and not just one.

Our ripperdactyls in the current book IS our new monstrous cavalry. Givin us another (those you made in the rare section for 65pts) is just too much. Why are they needed since we already have heavy hitting monstrous cavalry (rippers)? They serve the purpose you want.

I still think you can justify added armour to the COR. Just say that the Cold Ones have been fitted with some extra armour and drop the movement to 6 ("barded"). It can be done and still make sense.

obviously all of what I say are just suggestions, but I feel as if you've made lizardmen top tier than can match WoC in close combat and I don't think that's the intention of our faction.

 

[Tlaloc of Xhotl]

Ah OK I see what you mean,

I like the proposals, although I feel Frenzy would still fit the Sotek Lore. In Horde with Spears it would give about 20 extra attack rolls with PF maybe 2pts each is a little low. If it was 3pts each that would cost 120 pts for the unit which is about 11 Saurus Warriors. With the additional drawback of having to test for charging.

What if for Tlazcotl it gave affected units +1 LD and then for army the army gains stubborn and the Tlazcotl units gain Unbreakable? I wanted it to reflect the lore that the Tlazcotl units would fight to the death no matter the odds.

Ripperdactyls fill a different slow than the cavalry I proposed. They are more of an assassin unit, whereas the Pachycephalos are more heavy cav. Rippers aren't meant to get stuck into big fights. I don't think it's out of character with the Lizardmen to have a unit to do that. It also makes sure the Saurus can still have a big role to play in combat rather than having loads of skinks in the army.

I had dropped the points a mage-priest can spend on items to make sure he couldn't get the book as well as increased level. I suppose it could be a discipline though. I just don't think the mage-priests are represented as nearly as powerful as they should be, given that they have all been alive and casting spells of unimaginable power for millennia but in each battle some puny wizard can easily dispel their casts and there's a reasonable chance to suffer potentially fatal miscasts. I thought making level 5 or making immune to miscasts would be possible solutions but I know people won't agree on the best way.

To be honest I think that you should be able to upgrade your army to be Saurus focussed and be very strong in CC. They were designed to be killing machines but at the moment they don't really stand out as particularly special. I don't want them to be OP but I want the choice to make them stronger.

I also don't think Cold One Riders need a huge buff. At T4 Sv 2+ S4 A2 they are already just as tough as most other armies cavalry and have the advantage of extra attacks and not being S3 after charging in with lances.