Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by Gloridruinelyn, Aug 20, 2019.
Precisely why i rarely use the guards and prefer knights
Same here. I really really want to like Guards, I love how they look and like tanky lists, and the Eternity Warden is a great model (even though he is resin and I almost went crazy building him). Very often they are just not worth it though.
So are guard at all worth it? From what i see they would be better replaced by knights or a big block of saurus warriors, both of which can deal similar damage but I could be missing something
In small numbers saurus warriors can't do nearly as much damage as guards do.. At least not in the games i played.
Definitely, saurus that are in small units and are not supported are garbage, but when you get a sunclaw or some large numbers (or both) and a buff or two they are terrifying
Honestly, what kind of buff do you think the guards need to be viable in the future? I’d like something similar to the spell the archmage casts where on a 6+ mortal wounds/wounds would be negated but that could be OP. Maybe a skink priest with a similar spell would be v good in our army?
They are worthwhile when summoning. For example in situations like this: If your opponent's wizard is standing on objective A, summon some guards on objective B. You will know control objective B unless he brings his wizard all the way over in which case you can grab objective A.
This works quite well as units used for grabbing objectives will have trouble even with unbuffed guard. Have them followed around by a hero and they'l be excellent for holding and stealing objectives as even outside a starhost and with minimum support they're basicly only threatenend by mortal wounds. So they can be usefull for forcing your opponent to go on a wild goose-chase.
They need 2 wounds minimum, our shields should work against all levels of rend & they need some form of protection against mortal wounds. Also these need to be base-line abilities, not external buffs or given by the battalion. In exchange the battalion can be entirely re-worked as we'd need longer need the +1 to save and the D3 damage.
i would love this all this and a 40 point increase would still be great value
I think if all our Saurus got an additional wound that would make them a lot more viable.
For guards I think they should become really elite, with stat lines comparable to Orruk Brutes (although a bit less offense, more defense) or Stormcast Paladins.
@Canas's suggestion sounds pretty great.
Guard dream stats:
5" move, 10 bravery, 3 wounds, 3+ save
Celestial pole axe 2A/3+/3+/-/1
Jaws and shield 1A/4+/4+/-/1
10"> of an friendly Eternity warden: +1 save rolls, +2 bravery
On your turn if Saurus guard didn't move, celestial polearm gets -1 rend and damage becomes D3
Banner: -1 bravery to enemy units < 12" away
Drums: same rule
Eternal star host buffs: (same requirements)
10"> of friendly Seraphon hero : 3+ FNP, +1 attack with Celestite Polearm
5 - 20 unit size 160 points (compare to troglodon points)
What do you guys think? Clearly this would be building them as a true elite, and in the world in which they get a 3rd wound is the same magical Christmas land in which Saurus warriors have a 2nd wound
Soooo, your current suggestion is that their baseline stats become what they are within the current starhost, but they get +2 wounds each and their points are only doubled?
And in the new starhost, for 770 points, you'd have 45 wounds worth of guard with 2+/3++ saves? So, to down even one guard, the opponent would need to inflict around 18 normal wounds or 9 mortal wounds? This is way too strong. To put it into numbers, that's about 14 points per wound once the eternity warden is removed from the equation, and that is incredibly cost efficient for how sturdy these guys are. For reference, the current guard in the battalion are 26 pts/wound if you ignore the eternity warden.
What you are suggesting leaves little room to play anything else frankly. I'd definitely run at least 3 units of 10 in a 2000 pt match and laugh as my opponents fail to do much of anything as even mortal wounds fail to stick against the 90 wounds in my army are essentially untouchable.
i was going to say somthing along these lines but you beat me to it wile i ran numbers with the above stat line we would be tankeirer then fireslayers and as killy as eels this would be the best battleline in the intire game
you say this, but
Fyreslayers Hearthguard Berzerker
2 wounds, 4" 5+ 8 bravery
Poleaxe 2" 2A/3+/3+/-/1, on 6 to hit inflict 2 MW and continue attack sequence
alpha gets an extra attack
if Fyreslayer hero <10" FNP goes from 6+ to 3+
and they are only 120 for 5 with a full unit discount of 5 models so 25 and 30 models cost the same.
that hero for the FNP boost, you make it a runesmiter, and now they have a 4+ save, 4+ FNP, deep strike and can run and charge in the same turn
in their battalion... they can attack first or attack twice I forget which and am at work
I want something... ONE FREAKING unit, that is comparable, that doesn't need a battalion and 5 buffs to be competitive.
If they were expensive enough I'd like that. 220 points or so.
they are not killier than eels. they are intended to be tankier than Fyreslayers
oh and the Fyreslayers have a ranged attack I forgot.
really becouse eels cost more have less models and do 3.55 damage per model on the charge or 15.93 points per wound.
these do 2.92 per model and even with the battalion cost are 14.38 points per wound that's better damage in every way.
and they arnt just tankeyer then the most durable unit in the game they are tankyer by 61.12%. i do wan't a powerful guard unit but this makes them worse then plague monks
Sure, I get that zerkers are great, but there is a monumental difference between a 2+ save and a 3+ save. Not only that, but tacking on an extra wound per model is huge.
120 points for 10 wounds with a 4+ save and a 3++ gives you a unit with an effective 60 wounds (2 pts/w)
210 points (160 base unit + 1/3 battalion costs) for 15 wounds with a 2+ save and a 3++ FNP gives you a unit with an effective 270 wounds. (0.77 pts/w)
Sure, the guard would cost almost double, but would be capable of soaking up more than 4x the damage. The guard would also miss out on the mortal wounds or the ranged attack that zerkers get, but they have better movement, better bravery and just tank better. What you have suggested is too good to the point of broken.
Edit: Thinking about this, all that this discussion has convinced me of is that zerkers may need a slight point bump.
I mean I play Fyreslayers as my secondary army and that's what I was using for a basis, I wanted the guard to be better. lol. but if they are undercosted as well, then my point basis is moot
thanks for the input.
well we cant be worse than plague monks can we.... although tbh our guard are supposed to shred those stinky spawn pool defilers