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KoW Negator's army blog

Discussion in 'Salamanders Army Lists' started by Negator, Nov 9, 2016.

  1. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    EDIT: Army Win/loss tournament tracker:

    Siege of Augusta:

    Undead - loss
    Ogres - win
    Ogres - win

    Discover games, GA:

    Persians - win
    Elves - win
    Nightstalkers - win

    Manticon:

    Undead - win
    Elves - draw
    Elves - loss
    Goblins - loss
    Dwarves - win

    SEGA Jesup, GA:

    Mongols - win
    Elves - loss
    Nature - win
    Varangur - win
    Elves - loss


    So im still in the process of getting all my models painted and what not, and have watched every batrep on youtube.

    It looks like the best way to run salamanders is via Fire elementals + surging priests, but I'm still waiting on the models i want to use as eles to come in.

    In the mean time, id like to see if i can make a list that centers on primes while cutting out most of what seems points bloated in the sally army list. I've also come to the conclusion that i need herd allies for beast packs (and i found some awesome tiger-ish models for them). Still working on it, need to put a clear coat on. 16 - 1.jpg

    The two that stick out the most for me so far:

    Lycan Horde
    Beast pack troop
    Beast pack troop
    Prime Horde w/fire oil
    Prime Horde
    Ancients on Rhinosaurs Horde
    Lekelidon
    Lekelidon
    Herald w/diadem
    Lord on drake w/regen
    Lord on drake

    I would really like more magic items here but the very hard center, fast chaff, and 4 fast hard hitting threats really does it for me. It would be nice to have some backup infantry regiments though. I've considered swapping a Prime Horde for a regiment+3rd beast pack.

    List #2: This one REALLY has a magic item problem with only 30 points to spare, but it has more layers to its line. Any changes involve cutting a fire drake lord for another set of hunters+1 beast packs+upgrade ghekko warriors to prime regiment or a ghekkotah skylord + magic items.

    Tribal hunter regiment
    Beast pack troop
    Beast pack troop
    Prime Horde
    Prime regiment
    Ghekkotah regiment
    Ancients on Rhinosaurs horde
    Greater Fire Elemental
    Lekelidon
    Lekelidon
    Herald w/diadem
    Lord on Drake
    Lord on Drake
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
    Crowsfoot likes this.
  2. Itepixcauh
    Razordon

    Itepixcauh Well-Known Member

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    I prefer the first one actually, clan Lords NEED magic items, also I kind of like the double Primes Horde concept with fast chaff and fast hard hitters.
     
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  3. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    For sure. Id really like to give the other +6 defense, but that means removing the diadem (and i really like the dual purpose standard bearer), or downgrading one of the hordes. totally not sure what to do. I also really really want +1 move on a prime horde, and caterpillar on the ancients though i think i can get by without with proper setup, since I already have 5 pathfinding units.

    Im also pondering taking a horde of tribal warriors or spears and 3x beast pack. I could drop a prime horde to a regiment and add some magic items.
     
    Crowsfoot likes this.
  4. Rapax
    Skink

    Rapax Member

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    Given the choice between those two, I'd go for Ensorcelled armour every day of the week.
     
  5. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    Really? 10 hits a turn is pretty substantial, and the idea of a 60 point body not doing anything feels meh. I wonder if I could drop points to upgrade him to something that both inspires the infantry line AND contributes to the fight.
     
  6. Rapax
    Skink

    Rapax Member

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    The chances of getting 10 hits with the diadem are less than 0.1%.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2016
  7. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    i meant 10 chances to hit.

    i guess i could just give him the warbow?
     
    Itepixcauh likes this.
  8. Itepixcauh
    Razordon

    Itepixcauh Well-Known Member

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    That is actually a good idea, also costing just 65 points means that you can use it as chaff if needed with not much loss.
     
    Reveller likes this.
  9. Reveller
    Jungle Swarm

    Reveller New Member

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    I've always found that putting too much stuff on your standard bearer makes it hard to throw him away, and there will unquestionably come a point when you need to sacrifice him to a charge or just chaff another unit. The war bow is enough to keep him from feeling useless. The clan lords are going to draw your opponent's attention. Might as well give them a chance to survive.
     
    Itepixcauh likes this.
  10. BAE
    Kroxigor

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    I can't say I'd be keen on taking 2 Primes hordes. I know people say that's the best size for them, but I've tended to find they die quicker and deal less damage than I would hope for for the cost. They look really impressive when you put them down and the stats are good, but they are completely unmanoeuvrable, liable to being double (and triple) charged, and will never be able to get more than 25 attacks. I think the only time I've been genuinely happy with their performance during a battle was when I used them as heavy chaff with FEs behind them (link to Batrep here).
     
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  11. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    I played 3 games today using this:

    Lycan horde
    2x beast pack troop
    prime horde
    2x unblooded regiment
    2x lekelidon
    ancients on rhinosaurs
    herald w/bow
    skylord
    lord on flying drake w/regen
    greater fire elemental

    I had trouble keeping just one prime horde positioned well, i can see where 2 would be a problem. The double regiments were solid instead.

    Im happy with how most of it went down, but i had trouble making the GFE work without surge; mostly just bad position i suppose. In my mind i saw him as an anchor and second line to my main infantry line, able to respond to breakthroughs. In reality, he tried to do that, but just chased ghosts in the form of flying dudes while spitting a meager breath 6 when he could. My biggest pains were flying characters, and flying ANYTHING really getting behind my lines. At its worst, i faced an undead list with a dragon, pegasus, 2x revenant cav, and 3x wraith troops that was impossible to prevent flanks against. I think ill try a clan lord with honeymaze or mount as a bit of a fix for things behind my lines instead of the GFE, swap the skylord for a 3rd lekelidon, and given the diadem of dragon kind to the herald. Ill have most of what makes the skylord good in the clan lord (getting to the backfield, but no juicy flank or rear bonuses), and a much healthier short range response (diadem +3rd lekelidon) to other things behind my lines, as well as enough shots to focus fire small units off the table.

    So likely trying this next:

    Lycan Horde
    2x beast pack troop
    prime horde
    2x unblooded regiment
    3x lekelidon
    ancients on rhinosaurs horde
    herald w/diadem
    clan lord on raptor
    clan lord on flying drake
     
  12. BAE
    Kroxigor

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    Taking anything with shambling without taking a source of surge is wasted points so, if you're not taking the Mage Priest, dropping the GFE is a good idea. However, if you're struggling against flyers removing the ultimate anti-flying ability (shambling with surge) seems a rather odd choice! The ability of units with surge to charge in a 360 degree angle (turn in movement phase, surge in shooting phase) means far more control over where fliers can land. The GFE's breath is also a cheeky little bonus as he can do a breath attack on the unit it is charging before being surged into it. If you're careful with your anti-flying positioning (info found here) to control where opponents' flyers can land, having units with surge able to hit those landing areas reduces the threat even further. Against heavily skewed flying lists I'd also castle up one side so you only have to defend one of your flanks.
     
  13. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    I forgot to mention, the Lycans were absolutely pivotal. Move 9 nimble that hit reasonably hard gave all my opponents fits. Im considering wine of elven kind for a regiment of lancers, possibly even on the ancients on rhinosaurs.

    The 5+ regen even did wonders. In the game where i tabled my opponent, the lycan horde held and regenerated against a double charge from Elven dragon lords, which were both flank charged by rhinosaurs and my own drake.
     
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  14. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    So, new update for a tournament (siege of augusta, in Georgia).

    Lycan Horde
    Beast Pack Troop x2
    Prime Horde x2
    Ancients on rhinos w/brew of haste
    Lekelidon x3
    Herald w/boomstick
    Clan lord on raptor w/blade of slashing
    Clan lord on flying drake w/6+ def

    Plan being to phalanx up the middle with 15 piercing 1 firebolts + 3 lightning bolts, while fast threats hit the flanks. The raptor lord is on standby to intercept flying threats. Pretty basic stuff. I would really like to break up a horde into two viable combat regiments (IE: primes, ancients, guard), which likely means dropping a lekelidon.
     
    BAE likes this.
  15. BAE
    Kroxigor

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    Looks interesting and I'd definitely like to see how it plays. In my own experience Unbloodeds/Primes/Ancients/Guards do badly in regiments, excelling in either Hordes (if applicable) or Troops but maybe you'll find a way as our lists are very different. I have always found that Hordes are beasty and can both take and deal damage, troops are cheap enough to make them annoying to kill (as your opponent will have to dedicate charges/shooting at a relatively weak unit) but will get flank charges, greatly increasing the offensive capability. Regiments I have found to be too slow and unmanoeuvrable to really excel at anything.
     
  16. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    Really? that's good to hear. I wasn't very impressed with the 2x unblooded regiments I used last time. They didn't feel like they had a good cost to anything ratio. I do however want to see what 2-3x unblooded troops can do; 80 points feels pretty good for 10 cs1 attacks.
     
  17. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    This may be nitpicky, but what about blade of slashing on lord dropped for fire oil on one of the hordes? I envision the raptor lord only really engaging in 1v1s with fast stuff and really want to make sure he can disorder them but 5 pt cs against a grindy opponent seems hot
     
  18. BAE
    Kroxigor

    BAE Well-Known Member

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    I see Unblooded troops as 'chaff with bite' - for 80 points they are cheap enough to use as chaff, but if your opponent ignores them and you get a charge off they can do some damage. The only thing to be wary of is blocking your own lines of sight - most of my army is Height 2 or above (FEs, Lekelidons, Lancers etc.) so I can sit them in front of other units and still double charge with both. However, if you stick them in front of your Prime hordes, the Primes won't be able to see.

    It depends on what opponents you are facing. If you know you're up against opponents that might use lots of regeneration such as Trident Realms (Water elementals, Ensnarers, Nokken etc.) then definitely go fire oil. However, if your opponent will likely only have one unit with regeneration like with Ratkin (they only have Brutes & Mutant Rat-Fiend) then I'd be less sure. Other players might be more calculating than me, but I'd be concerned that it might overly affect my deployment if I had one unit that was particularly good against only one unit of my opponent. I know I'd be tempted to get my anti-regen unit into their regen unit when overall strategy is probably more important. Either way, it's only 5 points!
     
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  19. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    3 rounds into a 5 round tournament here at Siege of Augusta, using this:

    Lycan Horde
    Beast Pack Troop x2
    Prime Horde x2
    Ancients on rhinos w/brew of haste
    Lekelidon x3
    Herald w/boomstick
    Clan lord on raptor w/blade of slashing
    Clan lord on flying drake w/medallion of life

    1st round playing loot against an undead list running only one wraith troops, 3 necros, 2 cav regiments, and a smattering of other good stuff. I managed to bluff his deployment with the lycans and beast pack on the left flank that promptly ran to the center, leaving 3 units to catch up to me. I turned his right flank (nuked the troll horde, zombie legion, mummy regiment, skeleton regiment in one turn), leaving primes in center, but made two fatal mistakes (poor positioning that left one prime horde open to a flank, and forgetting to attack with another horde). I lost the center, and the game.

    2nd round dominate against Ogres with a legion, single shooters horde, and a bunch of melee stuff. Woods in the center meant my two prime hordes engineered some solid hindered charges by just running forward while my flanking elements were in place. i bluffed his right just like the first round opponent and rolled up his left for an 18-12 win.

    3rd round invade against Ogres with 2x boomer hordes and melee stuff. He castled up on his left in front of a rally point objective, with a couple units in his center. I placed lycans, beast packs, and dragon lord in flank positions, with lekelidons central of my lines, and both prime hordes and ancients to counter his brick of ogre hordes moving up the right side table edge. I stalled just outside of giant charge range on my right while the flankers encircled him. 20-10 win.

    Overall thoughts: Every game involved stalling until the primes could get into position because everything is faster than them, as well as playing chicken with who is on what flank then stalling the under deployed wing.

    Random unit thoughts:

    Prime hordes- being unwieldy only came up once really. Im quite happy with the larger footprint granting me cheaper attacks (especially in a list where almost everything is overcosted.)
    3x Lekelidons- Absolute gold in every game. Average mobile shooting that chaffs, that flanks, that can combine with a melee charge, that guards rears from flyers. They are miniature swiss army knives. Against other melee units they force the issue for cheap (come to me and my primes or keep taking hits).
    Beast packs- mostly just gave themselves away to guarantee crucial charges, but got a few solid flanking attacks in. 70 points for move 10 nimble pathfinders is infinitely better than ghekkotah.
    Clan Lord on raptor- I didnt face any war machines to hunt or massed shooting to disorder, but round one he did get to do his job by disordering some flying wraiths and keeping them off my drake's rear. Disappointed that I didnt get to see him perform, but thats only because i played 2 ogre lists that lack all the things an individual melee dude is there for. The extra inspiring was really nice; maybe i could swap him and a lekelidon for a battle captain on rhino with inspiring talisman and a herd centaur chief specifically for war machine/flyer hunting. Would be nice to get some inspiring for the lycans as well.
     
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  20. Negator
    Saurus

    Negator Member

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    New list ill be toying with for manticon next month:

    Lycan horde
    2x beast pack troop
    Salamander prime horde
    2x fire elemental horde
    2x kaisenor lancer regiment

    2x lekelidon

    Mounted mage priest w/ surge and inspiring
    Flying clan lord on drake

    I keep trying to get away from beast packs as chaff and using ghekkotah instead, but i just cant. M10 nimble opens up so many possibilites in game, including hiding your chaff turn 1.
     
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