8th Ed. Razordon general rules

[FRYtheEGGofQUANGO]

Hi, I am trying to fully understand razordon hunting packs but am having difficulty. I was hoping you guys could help

Razordon hunting pack (1 razordon, 3 handlers. Can buy an extra snack per pack). A unit is 1+ packs together, acting as 1 unit.

Special rules:
Aquatic, cold-blooded, cause fear, instinctive defence, scaly skin 5+, shoot barbs, skirmishers, hunting pack.

The last special rule i've listed, hunting pack, means that the razordon is a monstrous beast, hence it (and it's handlers?!) have swiftstride, and the razordon has a str5 stomp.
The wording of the rulebook basically says the handlers can't be harmed at all in close combat, but they can be in magic/shooting (effectively giving the beast(s) a 5+ ward save).
If these skinks are hit, do they not have a 6+ scaly skin save, when every other skink in the army does?
Even chameleon skinks have 6+ scaly skin...

On p85 the rulebook says, 'A rank of monstrous beasts need only three models to count for rank bonus, steadfast and so on, and only need a six model frontage to count as a horde, in the same way as monstrous infantry'. It makes no mention of supporting attacks, unless that's what we are inferring from the 'and so on'.
So if I have a unit of 6 razordons in two rows of 3 formation, can the 3 razordons at the back make only one supporting attack each in close combat? Where does it say that they can make more?

On p73 the rulebook says, 'treat the monster as the extent of the unit', 'In close combat, the handlers can direct their attacks against any enemy in base contact with their monster'.
Since my unit of 6 razordons in the 3x2 formation is in close combat (and has 18 handlers), can my 18 handlers all direct their attacks against eg a flanking unit, or an enemy character? Can all 18 handlers attack, and if not, why? Do we consider the unit of 6 razordons as 'the monster' in the rulebook, or treat each one separately?

If you tell me that only upto X handlers can fight (ie, the number of razordons in base contact x3 for their handlers), then you are reading the rules as 'the monster' being each razordon separately. It says in the rulebook, 'if the monster is removed, so are its handlers', so does that mean for each razordon that dies, we automatically and instantly lose 3 (or 4 if snack) of the monster's handlers?

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[Agrem]

If these skinks are hit, do they not have a 6+ scaly skin save, when every other skink in the army does?

Correct, nowhere in rules is indicated that they would have the save. No armour saves for them.

So if I have a unit of 6 razordons in two rows of 3 formation, can the 3 razordons at the back make only one supporting attack each in close combat? Where does it say that they can make more?

Correcy, only one attack from back rank.

Since my unit of 6 razordons in the 3x2 formation is in close combat (and has 18 handlers), can my 18 handlers all direct their attacks against eg a flanking unit, or an enemy character? Can all 18 handlers attack, and if not, why? Do we consider the unit of 6 razordons as 'the monster' in the rulebook, or treat each one separately?

This is actually not so clear at the moment since there is not many other monster and handlers that can be taken as units. So no other references. I think this was discussed over on some other thread which made me reread the rules for the salamander and razordons. I have always been so far in the assumption that all the handlers could attack. But carefully reading the rules I'm inclined to think that we should actually treat each salamander/razordon individually. Therefore this means that only those handlers that have their beast actually in base contact with the opponent can strike.

so does that mean for each razordon that dies, we automatically and instantly lose 3 (or 4 if snack) of the monster's handlers?

Following the thought here from the previous answer I would also say that you should remove appropriate number of handlers from the unit when one salamander/razordon dies. However since you are able to allocate the wounds however you like I would say that you should treat the handlers as a "pool of wounds" instead of keeping track every single razordon.

This is my current interpretation of the hunting pack rules as I also wrote in the other topic. It's derived mainly from the thought of the rule that indicates what is a hunting pack. Meaning the 1+3 models.

Others may disagree on my view on this but hopefully we get some discussion going on here about this.

BR
Agrem

 

[Scalenex]

The rules for Monster and Handlers on page 73 in the main rule book is clear. The handlers are "ignore(d) for most purposes." All attacks roll to wound the monster then you roll to see if the attack hits the handler or the monster. Thus the Skinks would be wounded on the Razordon's Toughness of 4 instead of their natural Toughness 2 and they would enjoy the Razordon's 5+ Scaly Skin in lieu of their 6+. ALL attacks are directed at the Razordons. You roll to hit the Razordons versus the Razordon WS, you roll to wound the Razordons' Toughness, then you roll the Razordon's armor save, then you roll the "handler save." If a Razordon has to make an ability test, use the dinosaur's stats, not the Skinks.

The Handlers do not even exist for non-cosmetic purposes. If a Razordon pack gets charged in the rear or the flank you move the handlers out of the way so the enemy can make base to base contact with the Razordon. Handlers do not effect if a Razordon pack gets hit or missed by a template. The only thing Handlers do on their own is make their WS 2 Strength 3 attacks. Even if only one Razordon out of a large pack is in base contact with the enemy EVERY Handler is also in base to base contact for the purpose of directing their mighty WS2, Strength 3 attacks.

The general precedent is that if a Razordon in multi-Razordon pack is slain, no handlers are lost as a result of the Razordons death. It's too much of a headache otherwise. If Skinks are assigned to specific Razordons within a unit, what happens when three handlers (out of 18) are eaten on a misfire? Do 1/6 of the Razordon pack have to roll on the Monster Reaction Chart? That doesn't make any sense, either the whole unit is behaving or the whole unit isn't.

It makes sense on some level to say a pack of six Razordons has three handlers per Razordon, but logic can be used to justify many things. What if the say the six Razordons eat three handlers before entering close combat. What happens if 15 handlers and six Razordon fight a round of close combat and emerge with 15 handers and 4 Razordons. Do you auto-kill 6 Skinks because that's the allotment for the two lost Razordons? 5 Skinks because that representss one third of the remaining handlers against one third of the Razordons? 3 Skinks because the three earlier eaten Skinks can be "assigned" to one of the dead Razordons? 0 Skinks because in theory four Razordons each with an extra Handler would be able to "sustain" 16 Skinks?
To avoid headaches. Every Razordon belongs to every handler and visa versa. Generally speaking the norm is as long as one Razordon from the original pack is still around, EVERY Skink Handler that wasn't specifically killed sticks around. As long as there is one Handler left, even a large pack of Razordons can avoid a reaction on the Monster Reaction chart. It's too much of a hassle to do otherwise and since the Skinks are Strength 3, WS 2, it's not like we are gaining an unfair advantage from this.

I must admit that I was wrong about one critical aspect of Salamanders and Razordons. I thought they were War Beasts, not Monstrous Beast. Monstrous Beasts have Swiftstirde (so by extension the handlers do too) Monstrous Beasts have Stomps so Razordons in base contact with Infantry, Swarms, or Warbeasts would get a nice juicy Strength 5 Stomp AND Razordons would be immune to Stomps and Thunderstomps.

You only need three Razordons to claim a rank (the handlers do not factor into rank calculations) but that's academic because Skirmishers don't get to claim ranks for most purposes. Only Monstrous Infantry gets Monstrous Supporting attacks, so Razordons in the second rank would only get one supporting attack in close combat.

 

[Agrem]

Agreed, I was mainly just trying to poke the thin ice with a stick on this one.

It is a lot simpler when you consider the handlers to belong to every razordon. I think we should just stick with that. Atleast when considering which ones will die. However I still feel that maybe the interpretation on the who is allowed to attack could be argued that only maximum of 3 skinks (4 if extras are purchased) per razordon can strike. Regardles of the number of remaining handlers. My basis of this argument is in the unit entry where it says that a pack consists of 1+3 models and BRB M&H rule.

But as it has been already discussed many times the rules for the monster and handlers are rather stupid. I think they were supposed to be somewhat like the crew of a warmachine but with warmachines it's much simpler as they don't have any other abilities than to just shoot. I actually wish that they would have made razordons/salamanders the same what they did with the current hydra and just got rid of the handlers. It's not according to the fluff but in gaming sense it would have made things much more easier.

BR
Agrem

 

[hardyworld]

Those are all good questions.

I concur with Agrem's initial thoughts.

The Monster & Handlers rules are not clear how the skink handlers work in multi-monster units, but given the definition of what constitutes a 'Hunting Pack' (a single Salamander/Razordon with 4 or fewer Skink Handlers, pg. 94-95), I think the method Agrem proposes makes the most sense. For general gameplay, you use the pool of Handlers together to control the group of beasts. When necessary (death of a sallamander/razordon or determining close combat attacks by Handlers), you'd momentarily define each 'Hunting Pack' in the unit by evenly dividing the remaining Handlers as evenly as possible to each beast and allocate accordingly from there. I don't believe that causes any of the headaches that Scalenex refers to. Yes 1 Handler can control 4 beasts, but at some point you may be forced to momentarily define which beast he is assigned to for allocation of attacks and again for removal of Handlers with loss of beasts...we get the best of both worlds since they are defined momentarily, as needed.

Since the rules aren't clear, however you end up playing it is technically a 'House Rule' (I've been to different tournaments that deal with this differently), so just discuss it with your opponent to make sure they are on board with whatever your interpretation is...90% of the time they'll roll with your view on gray army-specific rules because they'll want you to do the same for them.

 

[miturian]

can I hijack this thread with another razordon-related question?
how many times do you roll the artillery dice to determine number of shots? each beast has two attacks, so would you roll it once or twice for one beast firing? do you roll it separately for each beast? or are those attacks only close combat, so we only get to shoot barbs once?

if one beast can "misfire" twice in one round, I can see my handlers drying up pretty quickly?

 

[n810]

One die dice per Razordon.
(and one misfire per razordon)

Don't forget if they get charged
they get to re-roll the dice for your stand and shoot.

 

[miturian]

So, does the razordon shoot once or twice? ie., is the max. Number of shots 10 or 20?

 

[Iskander]

On the subject of the re-rolls when charged: Since you're using the artillery die, do you get to re-roll a misfire?

 

[n810]

yes, on a stand and shoot you can reroll misfires.

each Razordon can only roll one artillery dice each,
(3 Razordon, means that you roll 3 dice)

 

[miturian]

do you have any references to why this is the correct interpretation?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

do you have any references to why this is the correct interpretation?

"If charged, a Razordon Hunting Pack must Stand and Shoot if it is able to do so. However, when calculating the number of shots fired, each Razordon can re-roll the artillery dice" (Lizardmen AB, p. 47)

The key term is re-roll; meaning the second result replaces the first. In the old army book each Razordon was able to roll 2 artillery dice on a stand and shoot reaction, but that is no longer the case.

 

[n810]

Number of attacks on the profile only refer to close combat attacks.
ranged attacks are listed with the weapon or special rule.

 

[miturian]

thanks

 

[GhostWarrior]

Just as a quick clarification - as Monstrous Beasts, the Razordons/Salamanders do get to add their attacks (up to 3) in the same way as Monstrous Infantry. Check it out.

 

[Agrem]

Just as a quick clarification - as Monstrous Beasts, the Razordons/Salamanders do get to add their attacks (up to 3) in the same way as Monstrous Infantry. Check it out.

Oh yeah, you're right. My mistake earlier. I only checked the rulebook but missed out the FAQ. So up to three from back ranks.
I play so rarely with bigger units of monstrous beast with or against so I totally missed that one.

BR
Agrem