8th Ed. refusing challenge within a building

[miturian]

so, suppose a unit of 9 rank and file and 1 character is defending a building.
in the attacking party is a character who issues a challenge. can the defending character refuse?

normally a challenge can not be refused if the entire defending unit is in b2b - but are they? it says in the BRB that

An assault isn't resolved in the same manner as a regular combat, as the two units involved are not in base contact with one another.

At the start of the close combat phase, before any blows are struck, both players choose ten models from their unit to form the courageous assault party that will fight in the assault (if the unit numbers less than then, there is no choice!).

We also have

A single challenge may be issued and accepted as normal, but only the models chosen as part of the two sides' assault parties can issue, accept and refuse challenges

However, later, under special attacks, we have:

For special attacks (such as stomps) and items that affect models in base contact, a model fighting in a building is assumed to be in base contact with one enemy model nominated by the enemy player unless fighting in a challenge, of course, in which case they are in contact with the model they are fighting!.

I wanted to interpret it such that the ten models fighting are the "front rank" of the unit, all in b2b with the enemy. In that way, a challenge could only be refused if there were still defenders "upstairs" that could come down and take the place of the refusing character. My friend wanted to interpret it such that challenges can always be refused, since there is no base contact. That way, the refusing character would just sit the round of combat out, and only 9 models would fight. However, I think that violates the "choose ten models" rule.

what do people think?

 

[owain_b]

Yes I agree it violates the choose ten. If you only have 10 models all have to step forward and therefore you cannot refuse the challenge. But building are a fantastic way to keep wizards and other characters you dont want in combat safe is you have enough models in the unit.

Also just to add to that, I think the first paragraph from the BRB you quoted is just stating a fact that its different because the unit in the building might not even be on the table, so they are not physically in base to base contact. But it then stats to get arround that they the ten fighting do count as being in b2b.

 

[pendrake]

I think your friend was correct. It stipulates that challenges can be refused by either side. There are no qualifiers regarding lack of base contact, abstracted base contact, or number of models available.

(Look hard at your #3 quote @miturian, a model on either side, that is among the ten, has the option to refuse a challenge.)

It plainly and clearly says a challenge can be refused.

Period.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think your friend was correct. It stipulates that challenges can be refused by either side. There are no qualifiers regarding lack of base contact, abstracted base contact, or number of models available.

(Look hard at your #3 quote @miturian, a model on either side, that is among the ten, has the option to refuse a challenge.)

It plainly and clearly says a challenge can be refused.

Period.

I agree... that seems to be the right way to play it.

 

[miturian]

(Look hard at your #3 quote @miturian, a model on either side, that is among the ten, has the option to refuse a challenge.)

Actually, the sentence is mostly a restriction, saying that warriors not among the chosen 10 can't participate in challenges. It's not worded as a quarrantee for always being able to refuse. Bear in mind that we did go with my friend's interpretation, so I do concede that his interpretation is valid, but I still think that 10 models have to fight.
Otherwise, I would contend that the following is a valid hack: we are told that if the assault party includes models with special rules regarding base contact, then for each enemy an opposing model with such special rules is nominated as being in b2b. In that case, I could just join the character to a unit of krox, or razordons, and attack the building with that. then all enemy units are in b2b with the monstrous infantry / beasts, and no one can refuse the challenge. I could even just attack with krox and challenge with the unit champion.
Do you agree that this is within RAW?

 

[owain_b]

I think I have to agree with pendrake and nightbringer, I have reread the rules and I think if refusing a challenge violates the rule of ten models fighting it would stipulate that by refusing the challenge you need to select another member of the unit to take the place of the character that refused but it doesn't. So in a normal situation where you have 20 models say in the unit and a character refuses a challenge you would still have only nine models fighting as the character that refused doesn't fight. So only having 10 models of the unit doesn't change this and the character can refuse. That's how I see it now I have reread the sections on challenges and buildings.

 

[miturian]

even though it does say that

If one side suffers casualties before it fights, extra models are assumed to step up and join the assault party in place of fallen comrades, assuming there are enough survivors to do so. So ten models will always get to fight, assuming there are enough left to do so!

?

 

[pendrake]

I am going with "enough left to do so" never includes spell casters who might have skived off a close combat challenge.

Applies to a character inside or outside the building.

 

[owain_b]

even though it does say that



?

Well in that case it contradicts the challenge rule if you read it like that, as it doesn't state you can step forward when a challenge is refused, only due to casualties, so a character would not be able to decline when there is more than 10 in the unit either.

I think the statement you quoted says gets to fight, not must fight. So the character gets to fight IF it excepts the challenge and if it refuses the challenge it forfeits its fight

 

[Qupakoco]

Agreed with above. If you decline the challenge in a building and have enough models to replace the challengee, he would simply step back and cower like a pansy letting another model fill in his spot.

However if there are 10 or less models, the "Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide" rule kicks in.

 

[Trociu]

However if there are 10 or less models, the "Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide" rule kicks in.

Agreed. Extreme example to prove that: Lone Chakax charges building with lonely empire lvl 1 wizard. He has to issue a challenge but the wizard refuses and hides in the closet. And he does it every time!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Agreed. Extreme example to prove that: Lone Chakax charges building with lonely empire lvl 1 wizard. He has to issue a challenge but the wizard refuses and hides in the closet. And he does it every time!

That's a good point!

 

[pendrake]

the "Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide" rule kicks in.

...EXCEPT the building wall creates a place to run/hide (for either an attacker or a defender).

Not exactly sure how that works when there is one defender and one attacker (Such as @Trociu 's example) but I guess in his specific example defender would lose the combat / flee the building.

 

[Qupakoco]

Yeah I guess it would. But that's a little too technical. I'll just say that all my challengers are really really good at hide and seek.

Anywho, if you're a lone wizard and you get your tower charged by a unit of Saurus, perhaps the best defense is to accept the challenge? Or flee the building.

 

[protector]

...EXCEPT the building wall creates a place to run/hide (for either an attacker or a defender).

Not exactly sure how that works when there is one defender and one attacker (Such as @Trociu 's example) but I guess in his specific example defender would lose the combat / flee the building.

EXCEPT that assaulting a building denies a place to run/hide, and if you play it as you suggest then my lone empire wizard that is charged by any WoC character or unit containing a character or champion will never flee the building.

As assaulting a building rules state only combat casualties are factored into CR, with 0 on both sides from a cowering wizard he would essentially be impervious to any assault that must issue a challenge no matter the unit size as once he refuses a challenge he would be removed from the assaulting party.

The only other way to play it would be to ignore the refusing a challenge rules for removing the character from combat and allow him to refuse the challenge but still be a part of the assaulting party (Which seems to make sense as he needed to be chosen anyways). And that would then allow the opponent to put up to 5 of his models in btb contact with that one character.