8th Ed. RipperDactyls.

[VampTeddy]

So i am a hopeless case (or so i feel) after having tested the Ripperdactyls a few times - they fail me, however mostly against shooty heavy armies.

I used to do a single unit of 3, and after reading up on the flying bastards, i did a large unit of 6, and a smaller unit of 3. They got shot down to 2, and 3 models each on the first turn, and ended up being 2 and 0 turn two, with the 2 man unit dying to a group of archers where i thought them stronger than they were, and i will never ever assault a building with them again.

BUT!

How do i avoid losing so many models to shooting?

In most cases i've vanguarded, and that might be where the error lies?

Or is the error my opponents use of some 3-4 warmachines? i feel like i should somehow be able to avoid said warmachines. but am i?.

And once i engage, what do i engage? so far my only lucky engage was nightgoblins...

 

[Dog On Todd]

I typically keep them behind my main lines until turn 2/3, then fly them out to destroy vanilla knights/expensive elites.

They will always get shot because people are afraid of them, and its a small mobile ($$) unit. That's what shooting is for.

For me, they are a must against elves, daemons, and empire. Other armies they are less effective than a stegger (I've found). I don't play against every army though, so take this with a grain of salt

 

[VampTeddy]

I typically keep them behind my main lines until turn 2/3, then fly them out to destroy vanilla knights/expensive elites.

They will always get shot because people are afraid of them, and its a small mobile ($$) unit. That's what shooting is for.

For me, they are a must against elves, daemons, and empire. Other armies they are less effective than a stegger (I've found). I don't play against every army though, so take this with a grain of salt

I mostlyplay HE, where they die in droves.

Keeping them behind my lines will help some offcourse, but won't it only mean -1 (long range) further to be hit - LoS after all goes to them in a flying position no? or is that their own LoS?

I can still see how that would help though!

Also i will most likely change my lore to accomodate them better - Going life, or High to either buff toughness / ress modes or switch out for a Wyssans Wildform for the +1 str / toughness or iceshard.

But are there other ways to alleviate the issue? !

 

[godswearhats]

If you're mostly playing against High Elves, I imagine it's the repeating nature of the Bolt Throwers that you are having trouble with?

Life magic can help - you can make them T7 or give them regeneration for instance - but really it's going to be a lot more about positioning. Realistically, the repeater bolt throwers should be hitting you on 5s or 6s (-1 for Skirmishers, -1 for multiple shots). If you're behind troops, they'd be likely hitting you on 6s (-1 for long range) or 8s (-2 for hard cover behind unit) depending on what they were placed behind and how tall your models are.

So, assuming your opponent has 4 bolt throwers, and you're in short range having made a Vanguard move: 24 repeater shots, of which 8 will hit. 5-6 will wound, of which you'll save 1, so you lose 2 models, maybe 3. He's also wasted an entire round of shooting from his only War Machines shooting at your unit of Rippers.

If you are able to get Regen on them, you'll only lose 1 model, or if you get Flesh to Stone, even the unboosted version, you'll also only lose 1. (caveat: this is Mathhammer based on probability - actual results will vary!)

If you've Vanguarded and you've survived, you are now in a position to charge literally any unit in his army, starting with the Bolt Throwers. While they will hit first and re-roll, they will only wound on 4s and you get a 4+ AS, so you are likely to take zero wounds (these results are worse if they fail their fear test). Then you attack back with 4 S4 attacks plus a stomp, doing likely 2 wounds per Ripper.

Why all the math? Well, you can now see that in order to take out his War Machines in one turn, you're going to want to run 2 units of 5 Ripperdactyls. Vanguard them so that they can charge into his Bolt Throwers on Turn 2 (and avoid being shot at by other units also) and any one unit can weather the concentrated fire of all 4 War Machines and still win in combat in one turn, allowing an overrun into the second Bolt Thrower (assuming they aren't spaced too far apart). If you do that with both units, you can take out his War Machines and keep both Ripper units around. By the end of Turn 3 they'll be coming into the rear of his army, hopefully to take out the units that you put the blot toad on

----

Another tactic to consider is using them in conjunction with Chameleon Skinks. Assume you Scout within 12" of their front lines, you can be pretty much guaranteed to move to within 12" of the bolt throwers in Turn 1 and then shoot them with blowpipes. At long range, having moved, doing multi-shots, 9 Chameleons will roll 3 6s on average, killing the bolt thrower outright, which is one less to worry about!

Anyway, bit of a ramble. Hope this helps!
~gwh

 

[VampTeddy]

If you're mostly playing against High Elves, I imagine it's the repeating nature of the Bolt Throwers that you are having trouble with?

Life magic can help - you can make them T7 or give them regeneration for instance - but really it's going to be a lot more about positioning. Realistically, the repeater bolt throwers should be hitting you on 5s or 6s (-1 for Skirmishers, -1 for multiple shots). If you're behind troops, they'd be likely hitting you on 6s (-1 for long range) or 8s (-2 for hard cover behind unit) depending on what they were placed behind and how tall your models are.

So, assuming your opponent has 4 bolt throwers, and you're in short range having made a Vanguard move: 24 repeater shots, of which 8 will hit. 5-6 will wound, of which you'll save 1, so you lose 2 models, maybe 3. He's also wasted an entire round of shooting from his only War Machines shooting at your unit of Rippers.

If you are able to get Regen on them, you'll only lose 1 model, or if you get Flesh to Stone, even the unboosted version, you'll also only lose 1. (caveat: this is Mathhammer based on probability - actual results will vary!)

If you've Vanguarded and you've survived, you are now in a position to charge literally any unit in his army, starting with the Bolt Throwers. While they will hit first and re-roll, they will only wound on 4s and you get a 4+ AS, so you are likely to take zero wounds (these results are worse if they fail their fear test). Then you attack back with 4 S4 attacks plus a stomp, doing likely 2 wounds per Ripper.

Why all the math? Well, you can now see that in order to take out his War Machines in one turn, you're going to want to run 2 units of 5 Ripperdactyls. Vanguard them so that they can charge into his Bolt Throwers on Turn 2 (and avoid being shot at by other units also) and any one unit can weather the concentrated fire of all 4 War Machines and still win in combat in one turn, allowing an overrun into the second Bolt Thrower (assuming they aren't spaced too far apart). If you do that with both units, you can take out his War Machines and keep both Ripper units around. By the end of Turn 3 they'll be coming into the rear of his army, hopefully to take out the units that you put the blot toad on

----

Another tactic to consider is using them in conjunction with Chameleon Skinks. Assume you Scout within 12" of their front lines, you can be pretty much guaranteed to move to within 12" of the bolt throwers in Turn 1 and then shoot them with blowpipes. At long range, having moved, doing multi-shots, 9 Chameleons will roll 3 6s on average, killing the bolt thrower outright, which is one less to worry about!

Anyway, bit of a ramble. Hope this helps!
~gwh

one thing you said most surely helps.

My regular HE opponent does not use the rules for multiple shots - at all when firing his RBT's evn though i've asked him if they had that rule.

That's 1/6th less hits to go and wound the models.

the rest is a great aid too, think i will be trying 2x5 instead.

 

[Sleboda]

Then you attack back with 4 S4 attacks plus a stomp, doing likely 2 wounds per Ripper.

=> Good, encouraging thought process in your post, but I wanted to call out this bit.

You cannot stomp war machines.

Otherwise very sound.

 

[Lizardmatt]

If you're opponent is pouring most of his shooting into a pair of 120 point units, you're doing it right.

I use 2x3 rippers and 2x6 chameleons. The rippers force him to ignore the chameleons and deal with the rippers. Usually, most/all of the rippers get pretty shot up, but a single survivor is all you need to make a run at a bolt thrower.
I'll usually put the bloat toads on whatever has the largest psychological impact for my opponent, and quite often never even charge into the bloat units.

As for mitigating shooting; try and hold back at long range, and in cover if possible.
Remember that unit of flyers are skirmishers and get the -1 to be shot. If you can get another -1 from cover and or range, it goes a long ways.
I try and get the rippers and chameleons positioned so that my opponent can only face one or the other.

I like them best cheap.

-Matt

 

[Sleboda]

I should probably start another thread for this, but what's with all the love for chameleons? They don't shoot all that well, die in droves, and cost nearly double what a skink skirmisher costs. Why not just take double the skink skirmishers and march up the table to do the job?

 

[godswearhats]

I should probably start another thread for this, but what's with all the love for chameleons? They don't shoot all that well, die in droves, and cost nearly double what a skink skirmisher costs. Why not just take double the skink skirmishers and march up the table to do the job?

One word: Scouts. Chameleons are more expensive, but they can kill something on Turn 1 much more reliably than regular Skinks, and will stay around for longer as they are harder to shoot. You can often march into close range of whatever you want to shoot, and with BS 4, that means you're on 5s to hit with double shots - and 6s at long range, which still gives you Poison. Compare that to Skinks who have to start at least 24" away. Sometimes you can't even march into range on Turn 1.

Don't get me wrong, I would never want to replace all my Skinks with Chameleons - they fill a very different role. I also think you need to take more than 5 but less than 10 to hit the right unit size / balance for points.
~gwh

 

[Lizardmatt]

I should probably start another thread for this, but what's with all the love for chameleons? They don't shoot all that well, die in droves, and cost nearly double what a skink skirmisher costs. Why not just take double the skink skirmishers and march up the table to do the job?

They cost nearly twice as much, but put out twice as many poisoned hits.
They scout, giving you turn 1 shooting, often on warmachines.
The chameleon unit is half the size of skink skirmishers, letting them slip in places where normal skinks don't fit.


Really, it's all about the scouting. They can get into the back field so quick that they can get out of the enemies arc where it's safe to plink away all game.

A unit of 6 is likely to kill an elf bolt thrower. Two units of 6 will down just about any warmachine in the game.

Why I like them with rippers is that they bring redundancy. Both units are very good at taking out warmachines, and having 4 units that do it is much better than just two units.

-Matt

 

[Sleboda]

I guess I just don't rate S3 shooting highly. When I am shooting with any kind of skink I pretty much assume that only 6's matter at all anyway. Vs anything T5 or greater (war machines) those extra hits that worked on 5's are not going to get you much, if anything.

Not to mention, even though it's not common, there are scenarios where the scout rule is negated, at which point you really have paid far too much for marginally better skinks.

Oh well, guess I'll just have to give them a try!

 

[Lizardmatt]

I guess I just don't rate S3 shooting highly. When I am shooting with any kind of skink I pretty much assume that only 6's matter at all anyway. Vs anything T5 or greater (war machines) those extra hits that worked on 5's are not going to get you much, if anything.

Not to mention, even though it's not common, there are scenarios where the scout rule is negated, at which point you really have paid far too much for marginally better skinks.

Oh well, guess I'll just have to give them a try!

Correct, all I want is poison*.
12" march, and 12" range is a 24" ability to reach out and hit a target.
BS4 is 3+ to hit: -1 for movement, -1 for multiple shots, -1 for range.
Scout 18" to 24" from the enemy, and you can still get the poison.
I don't use the BS to hit on 5+, I use the BS to allow me to move and double fire at range. It makes the Chameleons a lot more survivable, and it gives them a much broader area of threat.


*While counting on poison, keep in mind any roll of 6 to wound wounds anything, so you sometimes get lucky and pick up another wound (about as often as the warmachine crew get lucky and pass their 6+ armor save).

Anyhow, 2 units of 6 chameleons can reliably kill a dwarf/empire warmachine in a turn. If an opponent screens the flanks with light units to protect against the chameleons, the rippers will usually tear through those units. It's really why the combo works so well. The two synergize well together.

-Matt

 

[VampTeddy]

Not to mention the psychological effect on your opponent as he deploys and notices your Chamo skinks - suddenly his warmachines were less isolated. Thus easier to reach for your infantry and has (mostly) a worse LoS.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Not to mention the psychological effect on your opponent as he deploys and notices your Chamo skinks - suddenly his warmachines were less isolated. Thus easier to reach for your infantry and has (mostly) a worse LoS.

Combine that with a wizard packing a comet, and your opponent has issue. Pack in to block chameleons and you're bunching up for a comet. Spread out and block chameleons and rippers open a gap.

IMO, rippers and chameleons are about table control. Two units of each is just shy of 400 points. If I can control match ups for the rest of my army, because of the mobility and hitting power of rippers/chameleons I'm going to do good.
Opponents that do the best actually ignore the rippers and chameleons. They take their ~2 shots with the warmachines and write them off, and push on the bulk of my army. If an opponent diverts attention to my flying/sneaky chaff, I'm ahead.

-Matt

 

[laribold]

I'm running just one unit of 3 Rippers and I am loving them! The psychological threat they pose to many opponents is massive.
Sure, sometimes they'll get wiped out before doing any thing but they often take a fair amount of effort to totally clear. And just one Ripper can kill off a hero level wizard and pretty much earn back their points. Last game my unit killed off 3 beastmen herdstone shaman before dying.

I run a Wandering Slann too and the Rippers early combats mean more spell options than just the magic missiles in the first few turns.

I'm enjoying them so much I'm considering a second unit, but probably won't go above 3. They are the ultimate suicide bomb troops in my experience.

 

[Putzfrau]

scout is an awesome special rule.

 

[Kru-Gar]

Realistically, the repeater bolt throwers should be hitting you on 5s or 6s (-1 for Skirmishers, -1 for multiple shots).
~gwh

High elves and Dark elves Repeater bolt throwers do not get -1 for multiple shoots.

Like Razordons, no shooting attack, regardless of how many shoots it got, do not get the -1 unless it specifically says: Multiple shoots(Something) (Or something very close to that) in the shooting weapons profile.

 

[godswearhats]

You are correct - my bad.

 

[Putzfrau]

just bought a box of ripper/terradons and...

i went with terradons. rippers are cool looking, have some great fluff, but at the end of the day terradons are just head and shoulders better at just about everything.

unless you already have plenty of terradons built/painted i can't see any reason why you'd choose rippers over terradons unless you just really like the models.

 

[VampTeddy]

just bought a box of ripper/terradons and...

i went with terradons. rippers are cool looking, have some great fluff, but at the end of the day terradons are just head and shoulders better at just about everything.

unless you already have plenty of terradons built/painted i can't see any reason why you'd choose rippers over terradons unless you just really like the models.

Rippers are more durable and hit harder - they're unpredictable slightly because of frenzy, and has no ranged attack.

Terradons have a ranged attack, and can drop rocks - they can even take more than one round to kill a warmachine.

I really don't see why you'd make the assessment that Terra's are better - both units excell at very different roles.

As a Chaff / redirector sure terradons are way better, but rippers are a combat unit or a warmachine hunter (depending on unit size) and will also attract a lot more attention (which isn't necessarily bad).

What's your reason to believe so i wonder?