8th Ed. Siege engines - moving and shooting?

[Karnus]

So I am spectating a game and the empire player moved his volleygun forward 4” and fires with the usual -1 to hit for moving and shooting.

I thought cannons and the like had the move or fire special rule but I can’t find anything to support this.

EDIT:

Found it! Move or fire and slow to fire

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

So I am spectating a game and the empire player moved his volleygun forward 4” and fires with the usual -1 to hit for moving and shooting.

I thought cannons and the like had the move or fire special rule but I can’t find anything to support this.

EDIT:

Found it! Move or fire and slow to fire

Yes indeed - your Empire enemy was obviously either cheating or didn’t know the rule!

 

[Karnus]

Yes indeed - your Empire enemy was obviously either cheating or didn’t know the rule!

I don’t know why I thought they could do it, moment of madness.

Also - the rules for lone characters state that pivoting counts as moving for the purposes of shooting.

Siege engines count as lone characters however the rules for siege engines state that they can pivot in the movement phase to face their target, this has been FAQ’d to say that they can pivot in the shooting phase to face their target (making them more OP). However this rule does not explicitly state they they can still shoot.

Which rule takes presidence?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I don’t know why I thought they could do it, moment of madness.

Also - the rules for lone characters state that pivoting counts as moving for the purposes of shooting.

Siege engines count as lone characters however the rules for siege engines state that they can pivot in the movement phase to face their target, this has been FAQ’d to say that they can pivot in the shooting phase to face their target (making them more OP). However this rule does not explicitly state they they can still shoot.

Which rule takes presidence?

I’d say that a siege engine should pivot in the movement phase, as you’re still moving your siege engine, even if it’s just in a circle to face your chosen target. I play Dwarfs as well as Lizardmen, and I have always treated any form of movement, pivot or moving straight forward, as preventing my cannon and Organ Gun from shooting simply due to the knowledge that a War Machine is a heavy thing to move, even for big muscly Dwarfs, and they also take quite a time to load properly. While mainstream movement is a definite ‘can’t shoot’ situation, though, pivoting is more of a concern as you’re not moving it that much. Such an issue could quite easily be a cause for dispute.

In any case, if you’re unsure on a particular rule, I’ve always seen it as a good idea to roll a dice on it with your opponent - on a 1-3 one player has the advantage, on a 4-6 the other player has the advantage. It’s a fair way to decide and it also represents how fate can affect the luck of both opposing armies.

 

[Karnus]

I’d say that a siege engine should pivot in the movement phase, as you’re still moving your siege engine, even if it’s just in a circle to face your chosen target. I play Dwarfs as well as Lizardmen, and I have always treated any form of movement, pivot or moving straight forward, as preventing my cannon and Organ Gun from shooting simply due to the knowledge that a War Machine is a heavy thing to move, even for big muscly Dwarfs, and they also take quite a time to load properly. While mainstream movement is a definite ‘can’t shoot’ situation, though, pivoting is more of a concern as you’re not moving it that much. Such an issue could quite easily be a cause for dispute.

In any case, if you’re unsure on a particular rule, I’ve always seen it as a good idea to roll a dice on it with your opponent - on a 1-3 one player has the advantage, on a 4-6 the other player has the advantage. It’s a fair way to decide and it also represents how fate can affect the luck of both opposing armies.

I’ve just read p109 - “before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn’t count as moving).” - looks like your dwarfs got a boost!

It seems silly that a Stegadon or even a wood elf lord can’t pivot to face an enemy in their shooting phase and fire but a cannon can pull a full 180 if they wanted and still fire with laser accuracy.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I’ve just read p109 - “before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn’t count as moving).” - looks like your dwarfs got a boost!

That’s great - that resolves the phase issue and also means I can pivot my cannon and shoot! Thanks for that mate!

It seems silly that a Stegadon or even a wood elf lord can’t pivot to face an enemy in their shooting phase and fire but a cannon can pull a full 180 if they wanted and still fire with laser accuracy.

A Stegadon I can understand because it would be difficult to get a massive great Triceratops to pivot round on the spot quickly (I imagine they would be pretty stubborn beasts) but a Wood Elf Lord not being able to pivot sounds like nonsense*. Why is that the case?

* I’ve never read the Wood Elf book so I don’t know the Wood Elves’ intricacies much.[/QUOTE]

 

[Karnus]

You can only

That’s great - that resolves the phase issue and also means I can pivot my cannon and shoot! Thanks for that mate!



A Stegadon I can understand because it would be difficult to get a massive great Triceratops to pivot round on the spot quickly (I imagine they would be pretty stubborn beasts) but a Wood Elf Lord not being able to pivot sounds like nonsense*. Why is that the case?

* I’ve never read the Wood Elf book so I don’t know the Wood Elves’ intricacies much.

Normally, You can only fire at what you can see. Which is normally your front arc, meaning you would normally pivot your character in the movement phase to face whatever you wanted to shoot in the shooting phase.

I am interpreting the rule for cannons to suggest that they can pivot on the spot in the shooting phase (as per the FAQ) without penalty which seems counter intuitive to the rules above, unless I am missing something?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Normally, You can only fire at what you can see. Which is normally your front arc, meaning you would normally pivot your character in the movement phase to face whatever you wanted to shoot in the shooting phase.

I am interpreting the rule for cannons to suggest that they can pivot on the spot in the shooting phase (as per the FAQ) without penalty which seems counter intuitive to the rules above, unless I am missing something?

Sorry my mistake - I thought you were saying that a Wood Elf Lord couldn’t pivot and fire in the same turn, not can’t pivot in the shooting phase. I don’t know why artillery is allowed to pivot in the shooting phase rather than the movement phase - I always pivoted my cannon towards its target in the movement phase anyway.

 

[Karnus]

Sorry my mistake - I thought you were saying that a Wood Elf Lord couldn’t pivot and fire in the same turn, not can’t pivot in the shooting phase. I don’t know why artillery is allowed to pivot in the shooting phase rather than the movement phase - I always pivoted my cannon towards its target in the movement phase anyway.

Mores the point that he can pivot In his movement phase, will count as moving, and as such have a -1 to hit modifier in his shooting phase where as a cannon can pivot in its own shooting phase and suffer nothing for doing so.

Just seems a bit, “off”, to me.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Mores the point that he can pivot In his movement phase, will count as moving, and as such have a -1 to hit modifier in his shooting phase where as a cannon can pivot in its own shooting phase and suffer nothing for doing so.

Just seems a bit, “off”, to me.

I do see what you mean, although cannons of course don’t use Ballistic Skill so wouldn’t be affected by the -1 to hit modifier, although Organ Guns do use BS so are affected by that rule.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I don’t know why I thought they could do it, moment of madness.

Also - the rules for lone characters state that pivoting counts as moving for the purposes of shooting.

Siege engines count as lone characters however the rules for siege engines state that they can pivot in the movement phase to face their target, this has been FAQ’d to say that they can pivot in the shooting phase to face their target (making them more OP). However this rule does not explicitly state they they can still shoot.

Which rule takes presidence?

Where did you find the point about siege engines counting as lone characters? As far as I can see, it's just counting as a warmachine, nothing else...

(Which would resolve the questions about moving and firing)