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AoS Summoning and teleporting

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Kadanga, Aug 21, 2017.

  1. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    Ok so let's analyze the damage potential against, say, Ironjawz. This is probably biased toward the Ark of Sotek a bit because Ironjawz have pretty good saves, but let's just do it that way to compensate for my personal bias toward the Solar Engine. :)

    I'll assume the Ark gets curse of fates. Both get the same Javelins attack and the same bludgeoning tail. So this will be a slight numerical advantage for the Ark as well, because in the first round the Solar Engine Bastiladon will not be in range for either.


    Here are the numbers for the SE:
    2d6 attacks, that's seven on average. 4+/3+/-1/2
    So half of those hit, which is 3.5
    66% of those wound, which is 2.3
    With the rend that means Ironjawz have a 5+ save, so 1.5 actually do damage.
    That means against a 4+ save we get 3 damage (4.5 against Chaos Demons) on average, most of the times on one unit, at a range of 20".


    Here are the numbers for the Ark:
    I'll assume it makes that charge.
    With four units in range: 8 dice hit. There is no hit or wound roll.
    So we cause eight mortal wounds. As long as our opponent is not playing Death (or another army with a mortal wounds save) this is pretty strong.

    Since we attack first, even if they are focussing our bastiladon down there will be at least 9-10 wounds on enemy units on average. (if we assume we hit once with our tail and also maybe with one Javelin or so.

    Now this looks good for the Ark. Especially since it will also hit armies with good saves like SCE or Ironjawz.


    There is one thing that affects our tactic a bit though: The probability of an Ark of Sotek actually removing a unit is pretty low, except with loads of luck, since we will be spreading our mortal wounds equally to the dice numbers. It doesn't matter if there are six units next to it, or just one. On average each unit will receive two mortal wounds. Even with a very low bravery on that unit this is unlikely to cause models fleeing by battleshock.

    The Solar engine Basti is causing its wounds on one unit. So it is more likely that it will cause a battleshock (probably not against Ironjawz, but against armies with single-wound models it might).


    Now for buffing:

    You can improve the Solar Engine Basti's wound output by a good amount using one or more of those:
    1. Stegadon (re-roll hits of one)
    2. Astrolith Bearer (rerolls of all hits)
    3. Skink Chief (+1 on hit)
    4. Thunderquake (both swift and savage are useful (re-roll hits or wounds). Also if you play Thunderquake it is relatively likely there is a Stegadon near anyway.)
    5. Curse of Fates (improve one of your failed rolls in each phase, so you can use it both for the tail in melee, and to improve a wound, hit, or the number of attacks roll. The latter being probably the best option if you rolled a 1 or 2 on one of the dice)

    So it is pretty easy to buff it to do ~5 damage per round (by choosing any two of the above buffs), and suddenly battleshock becomes more interesting.


    The Ark of Sotek Basti's "tide of snakes" profits from none of the above, except #5. You can alter a single dice. Statistically that means that you will do one wound more. Keep in mind though that this will only work for one round if you teleport it, and you cannot buff your tail because the tide of snakes takes place in the combat phase, and you only get to change one roll per phase. Also since you are teleporting into a group of enemies the Basti will probably die in round one or two.

    Still not bad at all, actually better than I thought. I still don't like not knowing what I will hit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
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  2. tom
    Jungle Swarm

    tom New Member

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    I agree with the maths above, but you can't forget that snakes happen twice per battle round and shooting only happens once. Curse will let you alter the dice of the snakes to some degree, so you could either gain an extra mortal wound, or redistribute one to a target unit. This is where there is some strategy in how you number the units you are surrounded by (if 3 units, set them as 1, 3 and 5 then curse will always let you cause an extra mortal wound if you roll a 2, 4 or 6)

    Anecdotal evidence (which clearly trumps all other) is that my rolls with the laser are god awful, failing to take down a 4 wound unit in 4 rounds. Whereas my snakes have completely wrecked half an army on their own.

    I think curse of fates is a must have for teleporting though, since it gives you immunity to 1 (unit takes no action that turn) lets them move after teleporting on a 5 or 6 and effectively gives you +1 to charge distance...
     
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  3. tom
    Jungle Swarm

    tom New Member

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    This is also probably coloured by the fact that the friends I play against always seem to run inspiring presence, so I never get much out of battleshock and even the blood roar doesnt get to roll :(
     
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  4. Aginor
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    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    VERY good points, I completely forgot about the shooting vs. melee thing. If the Basti survives that first combat phase (which depends on many factors of course, but given that it is quite sturdy it is pretty likely) the possible amount of damage is a lot higher. 6 damage on a unit is good.
    Especially if you teleport him in a round in which you had the second turn, hoping for that double turn to happen.
     
  5. tom
    Jungle Swarm

    tom New Member

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    I'm not sure the double turn benefits you, I was imagining throwing an arcane shield on him before teleporting, and the snakes happen in each combat phase, so given he might be out of range of a re-buff, it might benefit you to let your opponent go anyway, the snakes and your damage will be coming out regardless.

    The snakes occur at the start of each combat phase, which sounds small but is actually really powerful since its effectively first activation in the enemy turn, hurting his units before he gets to use them!
     
  6. Aginor
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    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    The double turn is useful because it prevents your enemy from getting a hero phase (magic killing your basti before it can act in that turn) or a shooting phase (archers killing it) in between, and some abilities (like a Orruk Warbosses Waaagh) only apply in their combat phase, not yours.
     
  7. scubrat
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    scubrat Well-Known Member

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    It might be better to save that for the save rolls, given he might be subject to a lot of hostility. I do love this idea though, the ark of sotek seems like a much more feasible option now we can teleport a bastilobomb straight onto them.
     
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  8. Koriialstraz
    Skink

    Koriialstraz Member

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    With the FAQs updated, I'm not sure that is count as retreat.

    Q: If an ability or spell allows a model to be set up elsewhere on the battlefield, and the model is originally within 3" of an enemy, does it count as having retreated?
    A: No, unless specifically stated otherwise.

    Link : https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely....nt/uploads/2017/08/AoS_FAQ_The_Rules_v1.2.pdf
     
  9. skipperyoss
    Saurus

    skipperyoss Active Member

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    Unfortunately the Ark of Sotek has an 8" range and you are 9" away unless you roll that 5 or 6 to move it when teleporting. As neat as it sounds, spending over 400 points for something that works 33% of the time doesn't sound very good. Now you could take a Slann and double teleport a lazordon and a Astrolith bearer whose planted his banner and enjoy 2d6 rerollable hits, with all the buffs on the bastiladon and put the banner bearer 9" away behind terrain to hide him.
     
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  10. Killer Angel
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    Killer Angel Well-Known Member

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    Do you want a more reliable combo ?

    Battle trait: Lord of space and time.
    Command trait: Vast Intellect
    Constellation for the Slann: +1 to run and charge.

    THe Slann casts Curse of fate, mystic shield and Starlight upon the Basti with the Ark, then teleports it.

    Tnx to constellation and curse of fate, the bastiladon needs to roll "only" a 7 to charge successfully. At that point it will be in combat, releasing the snakes, with -1 to hit it, save 2+, and curse of fate in case you roll a 1.

    This is just with a Slann with this set-up. If you want to invest more, the thing may improve.


    tomorrow we'll have a game "royal rumble" at 1000 pts, and I think I'll use this. Alongside with a second Basti with solar beam.
     
  11. Paul Beenis
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    Paul Beenis Active Member

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    @Aginor just a heads up... And I would love to be wrong about this. The thunderquake "swift" and "savage" rerolls happen in the combat phase so it doesn't effect shooting
     
  12. scubrat
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    scubrat Well-Known Member

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    It does happen in the combat phase but then lasts till the next combat phase (otherwise why would they bother have swift allowing you to reroll charges). So if you take the first turn in the first round, then it doesn't effect shooting, but otherwise it always effects shooting.
     
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  13. Paul Beenis
    Cold One

    Paul Beenis Active Member

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    Sweet yeah that makes me happy
     
  14. Aginor
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    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    Yep exactly.
     
  15. jevan
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    jevan New Member

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    Hey, how did this combo work for you in the "royal rumble"?
     
  16. Killer Angel
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    Killer Angel Well-Known Member

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    It was a 2 vs 2 match.
    Seraphon & beastclaw riders vs dwarfs & SCE.
    Thundertusk and Stonehorn were wiped away by shooting in the first turn.
    I won the game by myself :)
     
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