Warhammer Fantasy Battles - Army Alignment

I'd personally swap Empire and Bretonnia around - the Empire is more like the "soldier following orders" to the letter because of the Emperor's dictatorship, whether the Emperor is good like Karl Franz or corrupt like several rulers they had, while Bretonnia is obviously the "righteous knight" - and would put Dwarfs and High Elves in the good side of the spectrum, otherwise you're pretty much spot on I'd say.

 

That is interesting that you should place Empire more on the good side than Dwarfs. I've always thought of Dwarfs as the more noble of the two races. Humans are still prone to sneaky and underhanded behavior while Dwarfs follow their honorable code diligently.

 

Seconded -certainly the Empire have had their fair share of corrupt and selfish Emperors who were a good deal worse than any ruler the Dwarfs had.

 

Hahaha... silly Dwarfs!

I don't doubt that their code is too rigid at times, but the code is based on the value of one's word. A Dwarf's word is his bond. On the flip side, people of the Empire can be liars, backstabbers and cheats. I think those are worse attributes than a an overly rigid adherent to honoring one's word.

 

So it comes down to what that code is. "Your word is your bond" is a good code, the Dwarfs just take it too far.

That's true. My argument is that the Dwarfs are more "good" than the Empire. I can achieve this aim by
1. presenting ideas and points that add support to the argument that the Dwarfs are good
2. presenting ideas and points that demonstrate that the Empire is less good

In Warhammer, good is pretty relative. No Warhammer race is truly good, they are just more good than the others. This is doubly true for 40k.

But the ordinary citizens are far less noble in character. That's why the Skaven can always infiltrate Empire cities, the citizens and people in positions of power are easily corrupted. With the Dwarfs, the Skaven have no choice but to fight physically right from the onset. The Dwarfs are not swayed so easily as the heart's of men.



In my eyes the Dwarfs are the closest thing to a good race in Warhammer. They won't back stab you. They aren't lairs or cheats. If you don't cross them, they will never initiate hostilities.

 

The facts that:

• Bretonnian knights follow a code of honour and chivalry that (if it’s anything like that of Earth Knights) forbids violence against women and peasants (despite such peasants being looked down upon), while the Empire has no such code to my knowledge
• Bretonnia is a nation that has been united for hundreds of years while the Empire, despite being ruled by a single Emperor, still struggles to quell the rivalries between its city states
• The Empire uses Witch Hunters (who are quite happy to burn the innocent as often as the guilty so long as they get their pay) while Bretonnia doesn’t
• Regular Imperial citizens aren’t that much better off than their Bretonnian counterparts and the Empire is stuffed with filthy rich and corrupt nobles
• The Bretonnians came to aid the Empire in its time of need many times while the Empire rarely reciprocated

Say otherwise.

That in itself is a case for the Dwarfs not being flawless, but it’s not a case for them being worse than the Empire. Humans are no more exempt from bearing grudges than Dwarfs are, the Dwarfs are just more meticulous in remembering them. Indeed some of the Empire’s civil wars invariably arouse from grudges being borne by various city states against each other, while both Bretonnia and the Dwarfs have had far fewer civil wars.

True, Karl Franz is a good man, but invariably he is going to die in the next 20-30 years or so (if we ignore the bilge that is the End Times), as man, especially humans in Medieval times, had relatively short lifespans. 20-30 years is a mere heartbeat next to the full history of the Warhammer World, and of course once he’s popped his clogs a real scumbag of an Emperor could easily take his place for all we know. At least Louen Leoncoeur is believed to have a greatly prolonged lifespan that will allow him to keep Bretonnia good for longer.

I pretty much agree with this 100%. The Dwarfs are certainly morally superior to both Bretonnia and the Empire for the most part.

 

True, but when you are lawful AND following a good law (honor your word) then that shifts you more towards the good side. (with the caveat that they obviously are overzealous).

I agree with @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl . The propensity of repeated/continual civil war is a sign of evil on some level. Either the people are inherently and justly war/power hungry, or the ruling class is corrupt and in need of overthrowing.

That is an interesting division and compartmentalization of the aspects of evil. Truth be told, I don't believe you can accurately assess evil without taking both intent and outcome into consideration simultaneously. Both can shift the severity of one's evil.

For example:

Imagine a person is responsible for millions of deaths, but they had absolutely zero intention of hurting anyone. They might be referred to as negligent, stupid or unlucky depending on the circumstances of the event, but it would be incorrect to label them as evil.

Likewise, imagine someone is sitting in their parent's basement and dreaming of ending the entirety of human civilization. After deciding on their unrealistic and unattainable plan, they slip on the stairs as they head up from the basement, fall and break their neck (and shit their pants for good measure). History will never remember them as evil as outcome is a key determent in that assessment.

In the real world, the evilest people are general those that had the worst intentions and the greatest "success" in making those intentions a reality. (i.e. someone like Stalin or Hitler).

 

As an extension to this great discussion, I've set up a second thread exploring all the WFB armies on a purely good-evil axis.

http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/warhammer-fantasy-armies-in-terms-of-good-evil.23840/