Warhammer Fantasy Battles - Army Alignment

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

There are lots of different interpretations of the 9 alignments. Since it's a pretty fictional system of splitting up the cosmos there is not right answer.

The biggest change occured in 3rd edition. Neutral used to mean a midway point between good and evil, but Neutral turned into "Diet Good." Neutral characters want good things for other people, and they oppose evil, but they do not make major sacrifices to help others oppose evil without some other incentive.

Then there is an assumption that all nine boxes must be filled. In which case you find the best possible fit for every box. In which case both @NIGHTBRINGER and @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl 's interpretations are valid.

But I would argue that by the fluff, most of the blocks should be blank. Given that the Chaos Realm drives fluff so heavily, there is a lot built around Law versus Chaos. There are not many Warhammer factions that would qualify as Neutral with regard to Law and Chaos, and all of the Neutrals in this regard are Neutral Evil, Dark Elves, Skaven, Vampire Counts. Maybe Wood Elves could qualify as True Neutral. Her is my take.

• Beastmen Chaotic Evil
• Bretonnia Lawful Neutral with good tendencies
• Chaos Dwarfs Lawful Evil
• Daemons of Chaos Chaotic Evil
• Dark Elves Neutral Evil with Lawful tendencies
• Dwarfs Lawful Neutral with Good tendencies
• Empire Lawful Good
• High Elves Lawful Neutral with Good tendencies
• Lizardmen Lawful Neutral
• Ogre Kingdoms Chaotic Neutral with Evil tendencies
• Orcs & Goblins Chaotic Evil
• Skaven Neutral Evil with Chaotic tendencies
• Tomb Kings Lawful Neutral
• Vampire Counts Neutral Evil
• Warriors of Chaos Neutral Evil with Chaotic tendencies
• Wood Elves True Neutral with Lawful tendencies
• Dogs of War (who most people don't count) True Neutral with Evil tendencies.

I'd personally swap Empire and Bretonnia around - the Empire is more like the "soldier following orders" to the letter because of the Emperor's dictatorship, whether the Emperor is good like Karl Franz or corrupt like several rulers they had, while Bretonnia is obviously the "righteous knight" - and would put Dwarfs and High Elves in the good side of the spectrum, otherwise you're pretty much spot on I'd say.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

• Dwarfs Lawful Neutral with Good tendencies

• Empire Lawful Good

That is interesting that you should place Empire more on the good side than Dwarfs. I've always thought of Dwarfs as the more noble of the two races. Humans are still prone to sneaky and underhanded behavior while Dwarfs follow their honorable code diligently.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

That is interesting that you should place Empire more on the good side than Dwarfs. I've always thought of Dwarfs as the more noble of the two races. Humans are still prone to sneaky and underhanded behavior while Dwarfs follow their honorable code diligently.

Seconded -certainly the Empire have had their fair share of corrupt and selfish Emperors who were a good deal worse than any ruler the Dwarfs had.

 

[Scalenex]

I stand by my designation that the Empire is the closest thing Warhammer Fantasy has to "Good."

I'd personally swap Empire and Bretonnia around - the Empire is more like the "soldier following orders" to the letter because of the Emperor's dictatorship, whether the Emperor is good like Karl Franz or corrupt like several rulers they had, while Bretonnia is obviously the "righteous knight"

"Self righteous knight." Brettonian nobles treat the common folk like garbage. Empire Elector Counts and the Emperor sometimes take actions primarily for the benefit of the common soldiers. I remember reading Karl Franz raising State troops pay and what not. When I read fluff pieces about the Empire, the desire to defend civilians comes up frequently. When I read fluff pieces about Brettonia, they are usually motivated by personal glory first and foremost.

The Brettonians talk about being righteous, but the Empire walks the walk on being righteous, at least sometimes.

and would put Dwarfs and High Elves in the good side of the spectrum, otherwise you're pretty much spot on I'd say.

That is interesting that you should place Empire more on the good side than Dwarfs. I've always thought of Dwarfs as the more noble of the two races.

The High Elves mostly hide on their magic shrouded island. That's too cowardly to be deep in Good. The Dwarves Book of Grudges is more important than righteousness. The Dwarf book talks about a they built a fortress for X hundred pounds of gold. The humans were a few pennies short. Instead of saying "Hey, get the few pennies, please" they demolished the fortress brick by brick. They also wreak vengeance on the innocent descendants of people whose great great great grandfather offended them. Dwarfs clearly put their honor code above the welfare of people.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The Dwarves Book of Grudges is more important than righteousness. The Dwarf book talks about a they built a fortress for X hundred pounds of gold. The humans were a few pennies short. Instead of saying "Hey, get the few pennies, please" they demolished the fortress brick by brick. They also wreak vengeance on the innocent descendants of people whose great great great grandfather offended them. Dwarfs clearly put their honor code above the welfare of people.

Hahaha... silly Dwarfs!

I don't doubt that their code is too rigid at times, but the code is based on the value of one's word. A Dwarf's word is his bond. On the flip side, people of the Empire can be liars, backstabbers and cheats. I think those are worse attributes than a an overly rigid adherent to honoring one's word.

 

[Scalenex]

don't doubt that their code is too rigid at times, but the code is based on the value of one's word. A Dwarf's word is his bond.

That is something that is common to Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, and Lawful Evil characters.

On the flip side, people of the Empire can be liars, backstabbers and cheats. I think those are worse attributes than a an overly rigid adherent to honoring one's word.

That is a case for the Empire not being Good, but it's not a case for Dwarves being Good.

I guess one could argue that the Empire is less consistent than most of the other Forces of Order. The Empire very often reflects the morality of the Emperor. Karl Franz is certainly a Good man. While the Empire's metahistory has had many bad emperors, I think Karl Franz was in charge since at least fifth edtion if not goimng back all the way to First edition.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I don't doubt that their code is too rigid at times, but the code is based on the value of one's word. A Dwarf's word is his bond.

That is something that is common to Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, and Lawful Evil characters.

So it comes down to what that code is. "Your word is your bond" is a good code, the Dwarfs just take it too far.

I don't doubt that their code is too rigid at times, but the code is based on the value of one's word. A Dwarf's word is his bond. On the flip side, people of the Empire can be liars, backstabbers and cheats.

That is a case for the Empire not being Good, but it's not a case for Dwarves being Good.

That's true. My argument is that the Dwarfs are more "good" than the Empire. I can achieve this aim by
1. presenting ideas and points that add support to the argument that the Dwarfs are good
2. presenting ideas and points that demonstrate that the Empire is less good

In Warhammer, good is pretty relative. No Warhammer race is truly good, they are just more good than the others. This is doubly true for 40k.

The Empire very often reflects the morality of the Emperor. Karl Franz is certainly a Good man.

But the ordinary citizens are far less noble in character. That's why the Skaven can always infiltrate Empire cities, the citizens and people in positions of power are easily corrupted. With the Dwarfs, the Skaven have no choice but to fight physically right from the onset. The Dwarfs are not swayed so easily as the heart's of men.



In my eyes the Dwarfs are the closest thing to a good race in Warhammer. They won't back stab you. They aren't lairs or cheats. If you don't cross them, they will never initiate hostilities.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

"Self righteous knight." Brettonian nobles treat the common folk like garbage. Empire Elector Counts and the Emperor sometimes take actions primarily for the benefit of the common soldiers. I remember reading Karl Franz raising State troops pay and what not. When I read fluff pieces about the Empire, the desire to defend civilians comes up frequently. When I read fluff pieces about Brettonia, they are usually motivated by personal glory first and foremost.

The Brettonians talk about being righteous, but the Empire walks the walk on being righteous, at least sometimes.

The facts that:

• Bretonnian knights follow a code of honour and chivalry that (if it’s anything like that of Earth Knights) forbids violence against women and peasants (despite such peasants being looked down upon), while the Empire has no such code to my knowledge
• Bretonnia is a nation that has been united for hundreds of years while the Empire, despite being ruled by a single Emperor, still struggles to quell the rivalries between its city states
• The Empire uses Witch Hunters (who are quite happy to burn the innocent as often as the guilty so long as they get their pay) while Bretonnia doesn’t
• Regular Imperial citizens aren’t that much better off than their Bretonnian counterparts and the Empire is stuffed with filthy rich and corrupt nobles
• The Bretonnians came to aid the Empire in its time of need many times while the Empire rarely reciprocated

Say otherwise.

That is a case for the Empire not being Good, but it's not a case for Dwarves being Good.

The Dwarf book talks about a they built a fortress for X hundred pounds of gold. The humans were a few pennies short. Instead of saying "Hey, get the few pennies, please" they demolished the fortress brick by brick. They also wreak vengeance on the innocent descendants of peoplewhose great great great grandfather offended them. Dwarfs clearly put their honor code above the welfare of people.

That in itself is a case for the Dwarfs not being flawless, but it’s not a case for them being worse than the Empire. Humans are no more exempt from bearing grudges than Dwarfs are, the Dwarfs are just more meticulous in remembering them. Indeed some of the Empire’s civil wars invariably arouse from grudges being borne by various city states against each other, while both Bretonnia and the Dwarfs have had far fewer civil wars.

I guess one could argue that the Empire is less consistent than most of the other Forces of Order. The Empire very often reflects the morality of the Emperor. Karl Franz is certainly a Good man. While the Empire's metahistory has had many bad emperors, I think Karl Franz was in charge since at least fifth edtion if not goimng back all the way to First edition.

True, Karl Franz is a good man, but invariably he is going to die in the next 20-30 years or so (if we ignore the bilge that is the End Times), as man, especially humans in Medieval times, had relatively short lifespans. 20-30 years is a mere heartbeat next to the full history of the Warhammer World, and of course once he’s popped his clogs a real scumbag of an Emperor could easily take his place for all we know. At least Louen Leoncoeur is believed to have a greatly prolonged lifespan that will allow him to keep Bretonnia good for longer.

So it comes down to what that code is. "Your word is your bond" is a good code, the Dwarfs just take it too far.

But the ordinary citizens are far less noble in character. That's why the Skaven can always infiltrate Empire cities, the citizens and people in positions of power are easily corrupted. With the Dwarfs, the Skaven have no choice but to fight physically right from the onset. The Dwarfs are not swayed so easily as the heart's of men.

In my eyes the Dwarfs are the closest thing to a good race in Warhammer. They won't back stab you. They aren't lairs or cheats. If you don't cross them, they will never initiate hostilities.

I pretty much agree with this 100%. The Dwarfs are certainly morally superior to both Bretonnia and the Empire for the most part.

 

[Scalenex]

So it comes down to what that code is. "Your word is your bond" is a good code, the Dwarfs just take it too far.

That means they prioritize being Lawful over being Good. They might still be more Good than the Empire.

That in itself is a case for the Dwarfs not being flawless, but it’s not a case for them being worse than the Empire. Humans are no more exempt from bearing grudges than Dwarfs are, the Dwarfs are just more meticulous in remembering them. Indeed some of the Empire’s civil wars invariably arouse from grudges being borne by various city states against each other, while both Bretonnia and the Dwarfs have had far fewer civil wars.

The lack of civil wars is a sign that Brettonia and the Dwarves are more Lawful than the Empire. It does not mean that Brettonia and Dwarves are more Good than the Empire. It does not mean that they are less Good either.

You could also argue that the civil wars have nothing to do with alignment. The Empire is bigger and more diverse so there is more to fight about it. Also, the writers focus more on them.


You guys have made a strong case for your points, but I am not swayed, unless you decide to focus on outcomes rather than intent. If you measure outcomes and not intent, Dwarves are the most good, but I always figured D&D alignment was more about one's intent than one's results.

By the rubric of itent, High Elves are more evil than Dark Elves because they caused all the Dark Elve's problems.

This also shifts the Orcs from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral. The Orcs' intent is to destroy everything good and beautiful just because they can, but if you look at the outcome of their actions they have thwarted necromancers, vampires, and Chaos incursions.

By outcome, the Lizardmen might be the most Good. They don't always succeed in their goals but they rarely make bad things worse. The Warp Gate thing? That was the Old One's mistake not the Slann!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

That means they prioritize being Lawful over being Good. They might still be more Good than the Empire.

True, but when you are lawful AND following a good law (honor your word) then that shifts you more towards the good side. (with the caveat that they obviously are overzealous).

The lack of civil wars is a sign that Brettonia and the Dwarves are more Lawful than the Empire. It does not mean that Brettonia and Dwarves are more Good than the Empire. It does not mean that they are less Good either.

You could also argue that the civil wars have nothing to do with alignment. The Empire is bigger and more diverse so there is more to fight about it.

I agree with @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl . The propensity of repeated/continual civil war is a sign of evil on some level. Either the people are inherently and justly war/power hungry, or the ruling class is corrupt and in need of overthrowing.

You guys have made a strong case for your points, but I am not swayed, unless you decide to focus on outcomes rather than intent. If you measure outcomes and not intent, Dwarves are the most good, but I always figured D&D alignment was more about one's intent than one's results.

By the rubric of itent, High Elves are more evil than Dark Elves because they caused all the Dark Elve's problems.

This also shifts the Orcs from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral. The Orcs' intent is to destroy everything good and beautiful just because they can, but if you look at the outcome of their actions they have thwarted necromancers, vampires, and Chaos incursions.

By outcome, the Lizardmen might be the most Good. They don't always succeed in their goals but they rarely make bad things worse. The Warp Gate thing? That was the Old One's mistake not the Slann!

That is an interesting division and compartmentalization of the aspects of evil. Truth be told, I don't believe you can accurately assess evil without taking both intent and outcome into consideration simultaneously. Both can shift the severity of one's evil.

For example:

Imagine a person is responsible for millions of deaths, but they had absolutely zero intention of hurting anyone. They might be referred to as negligent, stupid or unlucky depending on the circumstances of the event, but it would be incorrect to label them as evil.

Likewise, imagine someone is sitting in their parent's basement and dreaming of ending the entirety of human civilization. After deciding on their unrealistic and unattainable plan, they slip on the stairs as they head up from the basement, fall and break their neck (and shit their pants for good measure). History will never remember them as evil as outcome is a key determent in that assessment.

In the real world, the evilest people are general those that had the worst intentions and the greatest "success" in making those intentions a reality. (i.e. someone like Stalin or Hitler).

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

As an extension to this great discussion, I've set up a second thread exploring all the WFB armies on a purely good-evil axis.

http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/warhammer-fantasy-armies-in-terms-of-good-evil.23840/