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AoS What are the advantages of summoning

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Saminator, Aug 21, 2018.

  1. gmoney
    Saurus

    gmoney Member

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    Thank you for helping me save 60$. I'll use that money to buy 2 razors instead lmao.
     
  2. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    Buy one razordon, get some blue stuff and mould your own.
     
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  3. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Tried that. Failed. The spikes make that very difficult unfortunately.
     
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  4. LizardWizard
    Troglodon

    LizardWizard Well-Known Member

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    The current Razordon model, imho, is kind of ugly. This is both good and bad. It means if you try to sculpt your own it can't be too much worse. But, it means if you buy your own it will be ugly.... lol. I bought mine because I didn't want to bother with someone calling foul at an event due it being a scratchbuild.
     
  5. gmoney
    Saurus

    gmoney Member

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    Yea I honestly wouldn’t mind dropping $$$ if the model was aesthetic but tbh half our models don’t look too good especially the smaller ones. Skinks look all right but the saurus units outside of the heroes look pretty ugly. The only reason I picked up seraphon was because our dinos look good but outside thunderquake, I don’t see a top performing list in 1k or 2k that also maximizes our aesthetic appeal.
     
  6. LizardWizard
    Troglodon

    LizardWizard Well-Known Member

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    Sadly our cold ones look a little bit derp. If only we had been given the Darkelf Cold Ones. I have considered buying enough of the resin kits to convert my Saurus Knights, but that is a bit more than I want to spend. Despite them all being a bit samey I do still like the look of Temple Guard and Saurus Warriors. They are no Nighthaunt, but they are in a good place considering their age.
     
  7. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    I read that often, but.... actually I disagree. IMO the aesthetics of the riders and the mounts don't fit between those two.
    Our Cold Ones do look derpy, sure, but their aesthetics (size of details, general style) fit.
     
  8. Tokek
    Chameleon Skink

    Tokek Active Member

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    I have been putting some thought into this as my plan is to run a summoning list in my escalation league.

    Fairly obviously a summoning army will tend to be a late-game army which needs to control the game and limit damage in the early stages to make the most of its advantages. If you can get to turns 4-5 basically intact with a summoning army the sheer numbers and the ability to summon direct counters to what you are facing should hand you a big advantage. Hopefully that advantage balances out that your Slann has been doing little else all game instead of handing out spell buffs etc. To an extent the underlying question is "are the summoned units a better buff for my army than the spells they replace" with the proviso that spells require dice rolls and so are uncertain while summoning is reliable and cannot be unbound. In general we are giving up spell buffs now for summoned units later.

    The same logic applies to the EotG - is the summoning better than zapping opposing key models with mortal wounds?

    One of the distinct features of summoning is that it allows us to put things on the table that the opponent could not entirely predict with no time to react to it being there. When we pull this off with summoning it will have more impact on the game.

    Shooting units with range 10"+ have immediate impact
    Units blocking movement or camping objectives have immediate impact
    Combat units might contribute but unless you have a bonus to charge range generally not
    Units which do work in the hero or movement phase will not contribute until next turn.

    Some of the units which come out of this analysis well are:
    Skinks for screening/scoring
    Razordons
    Salamanders if you have Skink Handlers
    Chameleon skinks
    Laser Bastiladon

    Slightly lesser immediate impact but still not always waiting another turn before useful:
    Eternity Warden
    Trogladon
    Stegadon

    Now whether some of those units are desirable anyway will depend on the match-up but it seems to me that those are the ones which might drop down and have an immediate impact. The other consideration is that the really big stuff will need a dedicated list build (with Endless Spells and an extra caster to use them for example) if we want to bring them in before late in the game. A Carnosaur needing 24 points is probably not arriving before turn 3 in a non-dedicated summoning list and not having much impact until turn 4; as much as i would love to summon in a Carno it looks fun rather than effective if it only gets to chomp on turns 4 and 5.

    The big difference with summoning from the EotG is that units appear in the Hero phase so they can be buffed and manipulated in various ways. You could for example summon in Ripperdactyls and then use a Stegadon to move them D6 inches - essentially giving them a 3D6 charge range which is far more likely to work.
     
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  9. Ektor
    Skink

    Ektor New Member

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    played several games with 2 eotg, plus summoning
    being able to pop in a turn 20 skinks to screen with eotg and then behind a razordon to do the overwatch when skinks are charged, was a pain for enemies : they will take the razordon shots, then during fight phase, enemy will have to take the decision to either resolve skinks fight first, or accept that they will just evade away (or worst even run behind the enemies units to grab an objective or kill a weak unit)

    with the summoning points, yes usually you are going to inject units according to ennemy or scenario
    by example there are several battlescroll which requires a hero with artifact or a wizard to capture the objective, go summon a starpriest (starpriest which will be useful in the game)
    feel unsafe for the slann, a warden
     
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  10. Tokek
    Chameleon Skink

    Tokek Active Member

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    A good point on the scoring Starpriest. I am not usually short of Wizards in my list but in the right scenario that can be a neat way to outscore an opponent.
     
  11. gmoney
    Saurus

    gmoney Member

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    Is the EotG really that reliable as part of a summoning list? Rolling a 14-17 with 3d6 doesn't seem extremely likely. I will admit that the other spells are useful but it looks to me that EotGs shine in 2k+ more than in 1k.
     
  12. Killer Angel
    OldBlood

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    As said, a summoning list will field a Slann, so the summoning of the EotG will be supported by a combination of 4d6, hence it will be more likely to happen.
    I'd say that a summoning from the EotG in the fist turn is the best result, 'cause the summoned unit will have an immediate impact that goes through all the game, while later is better to roll for other effects (mortal wounds and so on)
     
  13. Dr Kaos
    Skink

    Dr Kaos Member

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    Rolling 14 to 17 for an Engine is 34/216 or 15,7%.
    With a Slann nearby it goes up to 455/1296 or 35,1%. Out of those 455 however 16 results can also generate an 18 result so if you prefer that result always the chance goes down to 439/1296 or 33,87%.
    I didn't bother to calculate for Curse of Fates, but I guess the numbers will rise to around 50% with a Slann nearby.
     
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  14. Vexcor
    Cold One

    Vexcor Active Member

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    If You summon an sunblood, can He activate His command ability in the shooting face for your warriors?
     
  15. Killer Angel
    OldBlood

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Unless specified, command abilities must be activated in the hero phase, so it's a nope.
    And anyway, IIRC, the sunblood c.a. works in the combat phase, not in the shooting one.
     
  16. Dr Kaos
    Skink

    Dr Kaos Member

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    It is used in hero phase and have effect in the combat phase. Also, only Saurus units benefit from it and afaik they don't have any shooting attacks.
     
  17. LizardWizard
    Troglodon

    LizardWizard Well-Known Member

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    I think was asking about the Shooting phase because he would enter at the end of the movement phase meaning the next time he would have priority would be the shooting phase.
     
  18. Vexcor
    Cold One

    Vexcor Active Member

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    Exactly. But thx for The answer, i was not sure if i could get His benefit directly or Not. Sometimes when you have command points and no good use of it it would be a shame
     
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