AoS Advice requested on a 1250 MPP against Tzeentch

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Wilhelm Stürmer, Apr 4, 2019.

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What variation should I use?

Poll closed Apr 7, 2019.

  1. Sunblood

    1 vote(s)
    20.0%

  2. 30 Skinks

    2 vote(s)
    40.0%

  3. Cogs & 20 Skinks

    1 vote(s)
    20.0%

  4. A fourth option?

    1 vote(s)
    20.0%
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  1. Wilhelm Stürmer
    Ripperdactil

    Wilhelm Stürmer Well-Known Member

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    So, I was able to reschedule a 1250 MPP with a local Tzeentch player and this is my first time facing that army.

    We are playing Duality of Death. For those unfamiliar, here's the Objective wording for that Battleplan:
    • This battle is fought to control two objectives. Each is located on the centre line, one in the middle of the left-hand half of the battlefield, and the other in the middle of the righthand half of the battlefield, as shown on the map.
    • The normal rules for controlling an objective are not used in this battle. Instead, a player controls an objective if a HERO or Behemoth from their army is within 3" of the objective at the end of any type of move apart from a retreat move. The player loses control of the objective if the HERO or Behemoth finishes a subsequent move more than 3" from the objective.
    • Only one HERO or Behemoth can control each objective at a time – if more than one is eligible, then the first to arrive controls it. If a HERO or Behemoth slays an enemy HERO or Behemoth controlling an objective, then they immediately gain control of it if they are within 3" of it.

    See armies below. I need Heroes and/or Behemoths. I'll start with two and could easily summon either on T2, but I could also bring a Sunblood with Magmaforged Blade. He would get the benefit from Serpent Staff as well. This would also allow my Slann to not be as exposed. Alternatively, I could increase a unit of Skinks to 30, or make that unit 20 Skinks and bring Cogs as well. Or, is there a better 4th option?

    As far as tactics go, I know I need to kill his heroes, as any one of them can summon once he has enough Fate Points. I think the Gaunt Summoner is priority, followed closely by the Lord of Change. Rippers will target one, depending on which is more exposed. I'll probably road block Ogroid until either the Razordons can deal with him, or a summoned monster can. If I can deal with his heroes, the Pink Horrors dieing won't be an issue. Should I rethink my strategy? What advice do you have?

    Allegiance: Chaos
    Leaders
    Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
    - General
    - Trait: Arcane Sacrifice
    - Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
    Lord of Change (380)
    - Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer
    - Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
    Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)
    - Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond

    Battleline
    10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
    - Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
    10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
    - Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation

    Endless Spells
    Balewind Vortex (40)
    Chronomantic Cogs (60)

    Total: 1240 / 1250
    Extra Command Points: 0
    Allies: 0 / 200
    Wounds: 47

    Allegiance: Seraphon
    Mortal Realm: Aqshy

    Leaders
    Slann Starmaster (260)
    - General
    - Artefact: Ignax's Scales
    Skink Starpriest (80)

    Battleline
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers

    Units
    6 x Ripperdactyl Riders (280)
    4 x Razordons (160)

    Battalions
    Shadowstrike Starhost (180)

    Endless Spells
    Balewind Vortex (40)

    Total: 1120 / 1250
    Extra Command Points: 3
    Allies: 0 / 200
    Wounds: 61
     
    Wilhelm Stürmer, Apr 4, 2019
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  2. Torxhol Drakescale
    Saurus

    Torxhol Drakescale Active Member

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    For duality of death, the Bastiladon is absolutely PERFECT, especially if you can screen him with skinks, because he can just squat on the objective after a LoSaT, and he isn't going anywhere.

    At one point I was running a 2k on duality with 2 Bastiladons against khorne, had the slann trait letting me LoSaT twice, so I had both objectives turn one, and then just surrounded them with skinks, and he couldn't chew through them fast enough.
     
    Torxhol Drakescale, Apr 5, 2019
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  3. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    I would try to send the Rippers into the Lord of Change if possible. The Gaunt Summoner is important, but also squishy. If you spend you Rippers on him you likely won't have anything capable of dealing with the lord of change until you can summon something specifically for that purpose.

    Best of luck!
     
    LizardWizard, Apr 5, 2019
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  4. Schwaaah
    Saurus

    Schwaaah Active Member

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    What if you went:

    Slann
    Astro
    10 skinks
    10 skinks
    2 Razors
    Bastilodon
    Bastilodon
    Cogs

    55 wounds 1240/1250

    Astro will allow both Basti's to reroll, you'll have some potent summoning thanks to Slann and Astro, you could screen with skinks and have a few points left for razors and cogs. You have 4 objective takers, two of which are tanky as all get out and get bonuses to shred through chaos.

    It's probably not a good list. I am just spitballing here :)
     
    Schwaaah, Apr 5, 2019
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  5. Torxhol Drakescale
    Saurus

    Torxhol Drakescale Active Member

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    It's not bad, but for such a relatively low point value, I would take one basti and use the points for more utility, like handlers for the razors or some rippers.
     
    Torxhol Drakescale, Apr 5, 2019
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  6. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    Razordons and Rippers! Our two best units.
     
    LizardWizard, Apr 5, 2019
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  7. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    I'd bring two bastiladons with solar engine. They're basicly perfect in this scenario. He's fielding a daemon army so they'l blast through them with ease. They can capture the objective, and easily hold it.
    Literally nothing he's bringing could really hope to even get close to the objective unless he can guarantee to kill the bastiladon before it can retaliate as even a single bastiladon is liable to oneshot his stuff.
     
    Canas, Apr 5, 2019
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  8. Wilhelm Stürmer
    Ripperdactil

    Wilhelm Stürmer Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the input!

    I had not considered the Bastilidon, due to it's point value, but y'all make great points. Unfortunately, I only have one currently. I could still bring it and even run it with Shadowstrike. I could bring an Astrolith, but would lose 3x Rippers. Would that be worth it? Also, I really want to try Vast Intellect on the Slann, but I'm not sure it better than Great Rememberer.

    Allegiance: Seraphon
    Mortal Realm: Aqshy

    Leaders
    Slann Starmaster (260)
    - General
    - Trait: Vast Intellect
    - Artefact: Ignax's Scales
    Skink Starpriest (80)
    - Artefact: Ruby Ring

    Battleline
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers

    Units
    6 x Ripperdactyl Riders (280)

    Behemoths
    Bastiladon (280)

    Battalions
    Shadowstrike Starhost (180)

    Endless Spells
    Balewind Vortex (40)

    Total: 1240 / 1250
    Extra Command Points: 1
    Allies: 0 / 200
    Wounds: 57
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Allegiance: Seraphon
    Mortal Realm: Aqshy

    Leaders
    Slann Starmaster (260)
    - General
    - Trait: Vast Intellect
    - Artefact: Ignax's Scales
    Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
    - Artefact: Ruby Ring
    Skink Starpriest (80)

    Battleline
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers

    Units
    4 x Razordons (160)

    Behemoths
    Bastiladon (280)

    Endless Spells
    Balewind Vortex (40)
    Chronomantic Cogs (60)

    Total: 1220 / 1250
    Extra Command Points: 0
    Allies: 0 / 200
    Wounds: 67
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
    Wilhelm Stürmer, Apr 5, 2019
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  9. Schwaaah
    Saurus

    Schwaaah Active Member

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    I like the first list better personally. I think having the star priest and 3 more rippers does more than the astro and cogs. Astro really wants to be in a shoot heavy list at this point level I think
     
    Schwaaah, Apr 5, 2019
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  10. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    You don't have a shadowstrike in the 2nd list as you switched out your priest for an astrolith.


    I'd stick with the bastiladon + shadowstrike in this case.
     
    Canas, Apr 6, 2019
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  11. Wilhelm Stürmer
    Ripperdactil

    Wilhelm Stürmer Well-Known Member

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    @Canas Dropping the Battalion would allow for those 4 Razordons to return. Looks like the Bastilidon/Shadowstrike might be the way to go, though. I edited the list, but it would give me 8 drops, giving my opponent the ability to choose who goes first.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
    Wilhelm Stürmer, Apr 6, 2019
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  12. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    eh, battalions are important also for lowering the drops...
     
    Killer Angel, Apr 7, 2019
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  13. Lizerd
    Skink Priest

    Lizerd Well-Known Member

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    I like the idea of focusing on bastiladons. They are already excellent on their own but they also deal large amounts of damage to chaos daemons.
     
    Lizerd, Apr 7, 2019
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  14. Wilhelm Stürmer
    Ripperdactil

    Wilhelm Stürmer Well-Known Member

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    Wilhelm Stürmer, Apr 7, 2019
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  15. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    I really wish they'd drop that mechanic, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense and is just a tad weird… Also, with how big an advantage getting the fewest drops is it has rather a disproportionate amount of power potentially pushing out other more interesting lists in favor of it...
     
    Canas, Apr 7, 2019
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  16. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    I like the actual 40K mechanic, fully introduced with the missions of the last Chapter Approved.
    you roll to see the player that places first (let's say Player A).

    Player A places all his army
    Player B places all his army
    Player A goes first, unless player B steals the initiative by rolling a 6 on a d6.

    Obviously, this works because there's no chance of double turn in 40k, but in AoS it could be ruled as "Player A decides who goes first".
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
    Killer Angel, Apr 7, 2019
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  17. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    That mechanic is a lot better. Though I'd prefer basicly anything over the current "whoever gets his stuff set up first gets to choose". It's just such a horribly gamey mechanic with no real logic behind it as well as just not being all that interesting as there isn't much to play around with. You either take a 1-drop list and are al but guaranteed to have priority, or you don't take a 1-drop list and should probably assume you will most likely not have it (unless you happen to know what your opponent is playing I guess…)
     
    Canas, Apr 7, 2019
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  18. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    I rather dislike this method. 40k movement is pretty moot. The range of units means you can pretty much just camp any section of the table with decent cover and provides very little intensives to make use of movement.

    In AoS movement and Deployment is tactically crucial. A large part of tournament skill comes from concealing information and attempting to cause your opponent to place units favorably to you.


    I find deployment to be one of the deeper tactical phases of the game. I would hate to see it go. Also, they would need to make battalions much stronger or much cheaper if they didn't reduce drops. On a side note, there would also not be much of a reason to ever take MaxSU with the exception of a few tarpits or to avoid a combat disparity (which is pretty minor).
     
    LizardWizard, Apr 7, 2019
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  19. Wilhelm Stürmer
    Ripperdactil

    Wilhelm Stürmer Well-Known Member

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    Wilhelm Stürmer, Apr 7, 2019
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  20. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    I don't agree with the part I've bolded, but only because we play with Maelstrom and tactical objectives. Which puts a great emphasis on secret objectives and movement, so you cannot play on camping and shooting. Ad IMO it's the way the game should be played.

    Of course, it's different with the "classic" 40k
     
    Killer Angel, Apr 7, 2019
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