Star Trek vs. Star Wars (and a collection of memes)

Alas, my friend. I am only mortal. I consider myself level-headed on the vast majority of things, but somehow Jar-Jar specifically crawls under my skin. The thing is, usually I will appreciate a movie maker or screenwriter’s attempt to introduce a comedic element to a story. The thing is, tome, his character is NOT funny but vastly annoying.

As gone over elsewhere, I will (based on your and others advice) watch the second and third of the prequel trilogy as well as check Clone Wars (as recommended by @ravagekitteh i believe).

I don’t believe I am an Original Trilogy purist. I saw the first prequel movie and did not particularly like it. I admit that this prejudiced me towards the others and I will check them out. But I have also since seen two of the new Rise of Skywalker trilogy and didn’t particularly like them either. Not because they were not “the original” but due to (in my opinion) sub-par acting, plot holes and inconsistencies in the story timeline.

Case in point, I thoroughly enjoyed Rogue One and thought Solo was decent.

I have my own opinions. I don’t consider it childlike that I like some things and dislike others. I believe it is a natural consequence of being different people.

I make a point of not invalidating someone’s opinions. If they like something, great! Even if I don’t.

Hopefully this post is taken in the spirit of me trying to clarify my viewpoint, rather than an attack on you which is not my intention.

 

" I know what it's like to lose. To feel so desperately that you're right, yet to fail nonetheless. It’s frightening. Turns the legs to jelly. I ask you, to what end? Dread it. Run from it. Destiny arrives all the same. And now, it's here. Or should I say, I am."

 

At least there is significantly less Jar Jar to put up with. He becomes increasingly irrelevant. On the negative side, there is more Anakin annoyance (prepare yourself for sand).

I do not believe he means that literally. He has simply chosen to die on a very silly hill when it comes to the OT vs. PT. History has already made its decision, and it is not in his favour.

 

No Jar-Jar? I like the sound of it already!

No salt in the wound!

Fair enough, but I am also a firm believer in not knocking someone for something that they like. This works both ways, as there are many things that I like that majority opinion doesn't like so I respect the right of others to enjoy something which I can't stand! But I expect the same back!

I have called it the "Marmite Theorem".

 

Your post isn’t attacking me at all. On the contrary, looking back on that post I realise I was the one attacking you, and for that I’m sorry. I shouldn’t have been so quick to judge. I do get fired up into a Celtic battle-frenzy whenever I smell the scent of OT purism, because OT purists are a thoroughly unpleasant bunch who are never satisfied with anything beyond Han and Leia’s petty arguing and Flash-Gordon-Type storylines (and who pressured George into selling to Disney in the first place), but I should try harder to not brand everyone who likes the OT as one of those sad people.

Now you’ve redeemed yourself in my book tenfold

Have you finished patting yourself on the back and satisfying your ego? If I can learn to be less eager to blast everyone who dislikes Episodes I-III as an OT purist, you can learn to be more of a gracious competitor and behave with a little more humility.

As for dying on the hill, I would rather die with my own opinion than live with one fabricated purely to fit in with everyone else.

Also, because I’m on the hill:

 

Both of these made me genuinely laugh out loud, which doesn’t happen very often.



Something tells me this has been going on for a little while.... and that @NIGHTBRINGER enjoys baiting you! (I feel good-naturedly)

 

Welcome to the game of NIGHTBRINGER's (possibly snarky) responses. To proceed, roll a d6 and reveal the corresponding response!...

Spoiler: 1

Spoiler: 2

I'm sorry, you seem to be under the impression I had some stake in the creation of the OT and that my ego is somehow threatened.

Please explain how the statement below is a form of me patting myself on the my back...
"He has simply chosen to die on a very silly hill when it comes to the OT vs. PT. History has already made its decision, and it is not in his favour"

I was simply pointing out the folly of your ways and in no way implying the greatness of mine. (p.s. that's how someone pats himself on the back)

Spoiler: 3

FACTS DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS

Spoiler: 4

That would imply that there was competition to begin with. Trying to prove that Jar Jar is a shitty character is hardly a difficult task!

.

Spoiler: 5

At least an OT purist is a fan of a revolutionary and much beloved trilogy of movies, an PT purist on the other hand... .

Spoiler: 6

You literally "blasted" someone just a couple of hours ago and it remains to be seen how much you learned from that interaction. And before you tout your recently acquired tolerance and restraint, consider what you wrote in the very same post...

That's a pretty harsh condemnation on your part. You'll forgive me if I have doubts about the validity of your newly discovered enlightenment!

 

That retort doesn't work as well when it is Jar Jar holding the high ground!

It's a shame your opinion is in stark contrast with factual and objective reality. A foolish death, but I'll give you credit...

Spoiler

 

Marimite?

That is a noble code. Everyone is free to like what they like. Subjectivity is the spice of life.

Objective truth is something entirely different. For example:

If someone states "I really enjoyed Terminator Dark Fate", that is fair. It is their subjective feeling about the movie and they are perfectly entitled to it. I may feel differently, but their statement is fair and valid.

But if that same someone states "Terminator Dark Fate is a better and more significant film that Terminator 2: Judgement Day", that is objectively false. It is no longer the case of subjective difference in taste. There are objective markers that easily disprove that statement.


I'll admit, there are objectively mediocre or shitty movies that I enjoy, but I can admit that they are mediocre or shitty.

 

We vehemently disagree on 95% of everything. If you know one of our opinions on something, you can very reasonably guess the opinion of the other.

Sometimes we do go too far, but we always eventually restore a natural order.

 

"Marmite Theorem" as people either love or hate marmite, just as an example of something much loved and much hated.

Otherwise, I'm with you. I'm perfectly happy for someone to tell me about what they like or dislike. When they start trying to prove something is good or bad, I lose interest altogether.

I can appreciate the technical brilliance of anything: skill in dancing, CGI affects, acting ability, etc. That's fine. But when you are talking about proving your opinion it just becomes something else that's pretty base.

I have this with my wife. We do like many things that the other likes. We also have several things that the other does NOT like.

I'm not sufficiently big-headed or arrogant to believe that what I like is the best. It's just what I like.

The "best" is too often "thing most people voted for or paid for", which unfortunately just means most commercially successful. Not necessarily the most technically brilliant or morally upright.

Take the Saw movie franchise. Undeniably commercially very successful, considering the amount of sequels that it got (and is still getting). It's a pretty disgusting movie series and I hate to think what it has inspired.

 

I know. I've seen several of your discussions. I believe you like a good debate, don't you matey?

 

You're not wrong.

I've been trying to refrain (or more accurately "reduce") such interactions this year.

I often find myself too prone to its seductive allure.

My brain's default mode (when left unchecked) seems to be something analogous to...

 

Ha!

You mentioned earlier my viewpoint being "noble". It is. But I can't even remotely claim I stick to it at all times. I find myself trapped in through emotion or challenge fighting the fight to prove something is the best. So [shrugs] I try to live up to it as much as I can.

 

Whether it is more significant could arguably be considered to be objective, but whether or not is is the best is still firmly in the realm of the subjective. You can objectively say that it is more popular, or that more people consider it to be the best, but to try to imply any sort of objectivity to it being the best full stop is wrong, regardless of how many people happen to agree with you (and frankly, if you are relying on majority view to judge what your favourite Star Wars movie is, that says very worrying things about your capacity for independent thought). There is no winning or losing in this debate, and to unironically imply otherwise (or fail to make it clear you are being ironic) is highly arrogant and a good way to make people dislike you (which will funnily enough harm the point you are making)! The only objective things when it comes to evaluating Star Wars movies is what the majority view is, and that’s both largely irrelevant and easy to find out elsewhere, so I think that in the interest of being respectful it’s probably best if we simply leave all talk of objectivity outside our discussions here.

 

Star Wars all the way, although Warhammer 40'000 is better than both of them. Much of what I like about Star Wars is done a lot better in 40k.



I like Star Wars for its gorgeous designs, soundscape, musical and visual spectacle, historical inspiration, warfare, dark themes, varied setting (especially prequels) and strong (yet simple) overarching story with resonance in ancient myths and legends:

The fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. The hubris and fall of the Jedi knights. The hubris and fall of Emperor Palpatine.

It's a space opera for twelve year olds, and thus very limited in many ways. But Star Wars excel at what it does, when done right. For children of all ages when at its best.

Special shoutout to the four episode Clone Wars finale. Masterpiece.

 

I detect a fair bit of venom in that response of yours. Good, I don't mind trading in kind.

One will stand the test of time, and the other will not. Plain and simple. Box office numbers are highly variable and dependent on many external factors, so I don't give that measure of "popularity" too much credence. However, when something is judged across a significant period of time and it remains beloved, well-regarded and celebrated, that reveals to us something truly insightful. And such things can be objectively measured.

The work of Mozart will long endure when Bieber is forgotten to the ages. One can subjectively like Bieber's music more (Tzeentch have mercy on their soul), but objectively there is a significant difference between the two (and not in Bieber's favor). Feel free to place yourself on team Bieber, but history will judge you an imbecile.

Anytime you want to compare our mental capacities, be my guest. (how's that for arrogance?) And before you cry foul, your personal attack on me was unprovoked.

Spoiler: First off...

Just separating the wheat from the chaff. Forgive me if I choose not to dumb myself down in an attempt to get someone on the internet to like me.

Second, I'll take a pinch of "arrogance" over moralistic whiny preaching any day of the week.

Lastly, your "advice" on how to manage social interactions is not required. Tend to your own social network, I'm perfectly content with mine.

That is a major one, no doubt. How a movie or any piece of art is considered across decades of time says a lot about it.

However, do not mistake it to be the only measure...

• how a film influences the movie industry (the OT was far more influential than the PT)
• its impact on culture
• its contribution to the advancement of filming techniques or special effects (the OT did more for its time than the PT)
• historically (less so today due to political interference) its reception in terms of critical acclaim, awards, etc
• which film will be (positively) remembered, discussed and well-regarded in 50 years, 75 years, 100 years, etc.

I'm sure we can think of more, but that should suffice. Some are a bit more nuanced than others, but each can be measured if someone were dedicated enough.

The problem is that you and I don't think along the same lines. You think more emotively, while I place greater emphasis on logic and reason. For the record, I'm not stating that one is better than the other, as each has their place in the world and in certain contexts. However, I think you'll agree that our past "debates" have been largely fruitless. There is no amount of reason or evidence that I can provide to ever shift your viewpoint (in fact, you have criticized my usage of supporting evidence [graphs, articles, expert testimony, etc] in the past). Likewise, unless you systematically and logically deconstruct my argument, my mind will remain unchanged. Emotive sentiments will never suffice for me.

Experience has taught me that your viewpoint basically boils down to everyone's argument/viewpoint is of equal merit. I will never subscribe to such a notion. Some ideas and arguments are simply better than others. Sometimes I find myself on the positive side of that (hooray, great victory for me) and other times the opposite (a moment of learning and growth, also a victory if one can take advantage of it). However, we both have to be playing the same game. Emotions vs emotions or logic vs. logic, but never a strange and incompatible intermingling of the two. Your world is the subjective, and mine is (when available) the objective.

As such, I've attempted (and now failed) to distance myself from debating you (i.e. your last controversy thread). While I have no hard feelings against you, I did not like the tone of your response. When facing such a challenge, I will (for better or worse) always fight fire with fire. That is my nature and despite my best efforts, I find satisfaction in such chaos (Chaos, it marks us all). Escalated and taken to the extreme, it will bring out my more aggressive and problematic tendencies, hurt your feelings and cause undo hardship on our wonderful community and moderators. None of those outcomes is particularly appetizing for me.

We all know where this will lead.

Luckily, @Scalenex 's position on the topic is aligned with yours, and he has presented a polite and well thought out argument. While I disagree with some of his points and conclusions, I look forward to responding to his thoughts. However, that shall have to wait until tomorrow! Same bat time, same bat channel! (it may not be at the same time, but I liked the sound of that)

 

They're playing the Star Wars theme in the video.

Awesome.