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Advice for Tomb Kings tactics & army list

Killer Angel said:
Not unconventional, but if you plan to go with heavy shooting and magic, if course bring archers and khalida, plus CoS and hyerotitan.
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CoS and Hierotitan are on the list for sure. Archers and Kalida no, because poisoned attacks aren't going to help me against 3+ WoC armour saves and 1+ for the Chaos Knights, etc. etc.

Killer Angel said:
Do you know the light council tactic?
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What I understand this to be is a bunch of low level, cheap mages who band together to get a good Banishment spell bonus. I was planning to do this after reading several articles. Hopefully I can neutralize the Daemon Prince. I don't believe my friend is thinking with how deadly TK's can be in the magic phase.

Killer Angel said:
Another option you could consider is Arkhan. He favors a short range approach, but he's good at it.
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It is an idea... I don't like him because he is so squishy!!! You need to be close to have the Death Magic work and he will die at the drop of a hat (6+ save and no ward save, T5, flammable... jeez...)

I'm definitely going to have minimally 1, maybe two Sepulchral Stalker units to go after the auto-include for him Hellcannons. I really do think that he'll end up thinking: "Tomb Kings have mahrlect movement. I'll use both my Hellcannons and force him to come to me. Then after repeated bombardment, I'll take care of the stragglers. I'll form up my units around them to protect against Entombed in the Sands, but I'm not really worried about it. I don't think he'll be counting on me using these as I didn't really spot the low Initiative of the Hellcannons (1) and the fact that they can't use the Chaos Dwarf Handler Initiative until I went through the list a couple of times. No armour saves means he just has his 5+ ward save and with 3 in the unit that's anywhere from 6 to 30 automatic hits, wound on 4+ and then he gets a 5+ save. Should go down in first shooting phase I think.

I'm also definitely going to go heavy on the Chariots, 4 wide and 2 and a bit deep so I get 4D6 strength 5 attacks for the WoC.

Need to work over the list and then post it here. Would appreciate any feedback or tips! Cheers!
 
Has anyone used a large unit of Ushabit with Great Bows effectively? I figured if I take them, buff them with that multiple shot spell the it should be fairly effective against Chaos Knights were they rely on their high armour save (and the shots will wound on a 2+ and he will only have a 5+ armour save...)
 
Killer Angel said:
Yes, stalkers are not great, but against artillery are almost an auto-include!

Chariots are useful... but what about necroknights?
A 6 knights unit supported by light magic is pretty good
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Necroknights are SOOOOOO expensive! And they can't attack with full attacks like monstrous infantry... Against WoC I don't think they're gonna get very far...

Do you have experience to the contrary?
 
Killer Angel said:
Nope. I've only faced WoC with lizardmen...
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What is your experience with them? I shy away from them as they are a lot of points and are only going to be doing 1 supporting attack... The 3+ save is okay, but not amazing... I guess 3 stomp hits is decent? Just doesn't seem worth it against WoC with the WS5 and inevitable mark of nurgle meaning I'll be at 5's to hit and they'll be at 3's...

What do you reckon?
 
Okay, so I had an idea:

If I fielded a large unit of Necropolis Knights (I have 12, a 4 wide, 3 deep unit), then stuck Ramhotep with them.

If I didn't take any other animated constructs, then they would automatically get the re-rollable armour save...

Having Ramhotep as part of the unit means they have Frenzy and Hatred...

Because Ramhotep is within 6" he gives them a 6+ Regeneration save...

Because Chaos Champions are forced to issue challenges, I can decline and then he is sent to the back where he can't be hit...

Seems pretty good to me... Means I don't get a Hierotitan though... but possibly it's the smart thing to do considering it's WoC and i'm using TK's?

@NIGHTBRINGER @Killer Angel @Lord-Marcus ?
 
Lizards of Renown said:
Necroknights are SOOOOOO expensive! And they can't attack with full attacks like monstrous infantry... Against WoC I don't think they're gonna get very far...
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I thought they could, given they are Monstrous Cavalry? Certainly the riders would get to make their full supporting attacks in the way Monstrous Infantry do, even if the mounts don't as with cavalry?
 
Lizards of Renown said:
Okay, so I had an idea:

If I fielded a large unit of Necropolis Knights (I have 12, a 4 wide, 3 deep unit), then stuck Ramhotep with them.

If I didn't take any other animated constructs, then they would automatically get the re-rollable armour save...

Having Ramhotep as part of the unit means they have Frenzy and Hatred...

Because Ramhotep is within 6" he gives them a 6+ Regeneration save...

Because Chaos Champions are forced to issue challenges, I can decline and then he is sent to the back where he can't be hit...

Seems pretty good to me... Means I don't get a Hierotitan though... but possibly it's the smart thing to do considering it's WoC and i'm using TK's?

@NIGHTBRINGER @Killer Angel @Lord-Marcus ?
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Given that Ramhotep is an infantry model, he would be forcing the Necropolis Knight unit to move a paltry 4" a turn as he's infantry (unless you manage to cast Desert Wind to get the unit to march). I'm not sure if this tactic is a good idea, even with the buffs he gives the unit.
 
Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said:
I thought they could, given they are Monstrous Cavalry? Certainly the riders would get to make their full supporting attacks in the way Monstrous Infantry do, even if the mounts don't as with cavalry?
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I've checked the BRB and welcome any review of it I've missed, but on Monstrous Cavalry it doesn't say anything about being able to do full set of attacks.

@NIGHTBRINGER @Scalenex any comment here from the big dogs?
 
Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said:
Given that Ramhotep is an infantry model, he would be forcing the Necropolis Knight unit to move a paltry 4" a turn as he's infantry (unless you manage to cast Desert Wind to get the unit to march). I'm not sure if this tactic is a good idea, even with the buffs he gives the unit.
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I'll see. They don't move very far otherwise (7") and adding Frenzy to the rider and mount as well as Hatred to rider and mount is pretty decent...

We'll see where I end up with on my list.
 
Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said:
I thought they could, given they are Monstrous Cavalry? Certainly the riders would get to make their full supporting attacks in the way Monstrous Infantry do, even if the mounts don't as with cavalry?
Click to expand...

Lizards of Renown said:
I've checked the BRB and welcome any review of it I've missed, but on Monstrous Cavalry it doesn't say anything about being able to do full set of attacks.

@NIGHTBRINGER @Scalenex any comment here from the big dogs?
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@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl is correct.

The mounts don't get to make any supporting attacks...
"All the cavalry rules apply to monstrous cavalry..." [BRB, page 83]

"When a cavalry model makes supporting attacks, only the rider can strike - we assume that the mount lacks both he discipline and the reach to fight through those ahead of it." [BRB, page 82]


The riders do indeed get to make a full set of attacks (up to a maximum of 3) as per the ERRATA:

upload_2020-8-31_10-41-7.png
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl is correct.

The mounts don't get to make any supporting attacks...
"All the cavalry rules apply to monstrous cavalry..." [BRB, page 83]

"When a cavalry model makes supporting attacks, only the rider can strike - we assume that the mount lacks both he discipline and the reach to fight through those ahead of it." [BRB, page 82]


The riders do indeed get to make a full set of attacks (up to a maximum of 3) as per the ERRATA:

View attachment 78248
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Oh wow! Thanks!
 
Okay, so this is what I have so far (feel free to chime in with opinions if you've played TK's before anyone, I'll probably change it many, many more times before I play):

Tomb Kings vs Warriors of Chaos:

Tomb King with GW, Armour of Destiny and Dragon Helm (to go with TG)

Liche High Priest with Armour of Fortune and Level 4 (has to be Lore of Nehekhara)

Ramhotep the Visionary (to go with or near NK's, haven't decided yet)

Tomb Herald on Skeletal Steed, BSB with Banner of the Undying Legion (to go with either TG or NK's haven't decided, although I will note that this Banner doesn't have the rule of 1 wound per phase for constructs as it's not Lore of Nehekhara)

4 Liche Priests (One Level 2 and with Dispel Scroll) Lore of Light for a Light Council (for DP and Hellcannons)

20 Skeleton Archers (to provide LOS saves for Light Priests)

12 Chariots (4 wide, 3 deep)

25 Tomb Guard with Halberds and Command

9 Necropolis Knights with Command

Casket of Souls

---

Thought process is he will wait for me to come to him, thinking to exploit my seriously slow movement and take 2 Hellcannons to decimate me.

Hang back. Wait for him while doing as much damage in magic phase as possible. Use Light Council 48 inch banishment on Hellcannons and then DP when he gets close.

I'm anticipating 3 or 4 large units 2 or 3 Chaos Warriors and 1 Chaos Knight unit. Use Chariots against one closest to the table edge and swing round after (hopefully) decimating regiment with 3D6 S6 hits.

TG and NK should hold their own with buffs.

---

It's a very nutty plan but I think I have to be considering (in Nightbringer's words) I'm playing on hard mode
 
Lizards of Renown said:
Chaos Lord on daemonic mount, Mark of Nurgle, various magic items
BSB, Mark of Nurgle, various magic items
Chaos Level 4 Sorcerer, Mark of Nurgle, various magic items
Daemon Prince, Mark of Nurgle, Chaos armour, some daemonic gifts

2 units of 25 Chaos Warriors, Mark of Nurgle, probably additional hand weapon rather than halberds as he doesn't really need them and will want to be making more combat resolution difference

I think he'll take some marauder horsemen or troops to try to redirect my Chariot charges (he knows approximately what models I have and said in his last email that he needs to work out a counter to them)

1 unit of 10 Chaos Knights (he's very found of them for obvious reasons and usually sticks his lord and sorcerer in there).

2 Hellcannons (which I think he'll probably end up with as a counter to the chariots since he can sit back and shoot the mahrlect out of them before they arrive with their shitty speed and even if I rush them magically they will be utterly unsupported and get flanked or the daemon prince will Fly-charge them and they'll lose any advantage they may have had).
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Wow, that is a lot of characters. At least you can be happy that you're not facing the Hortennse build! The Daemon Prince, if properly kitted out, will be a problem if you can't blast it away at range before it gets to your lines.

The good news is that Chaos Knights are only an "okay" choice (by WoC standards). If I were your opposition, those would be Skullcrushers!


Okay, now the bad news... that is a lot of armour (as expected). Tomb Kings aren't notoriously good at reliably taking out armour. We have a few tools, but it isn't our strong suit. Killing blow only goes so far, and it won't work on things like Hellcannons, DP or the daemonic mounted characters.

This game will come down to the question of how (or if) you can beat his armour.
At range, these are some of the anti-armour options I would consider (obviously you can't focus on them all):
  • Sepulchral Stalkers!!
  • Casket's Light of Death Spell
  • Lore of Death
  • Light Council
And some of the options I would avoid:
  • Ushabti with Great Bows (not worth it for the points)
  • Necrolith Colossus Bow of the Desert (chances of hitting are low)
  • Screaming Skull Catapult (very unlikely to help you against the DP)


In close combat, (outside of characters) your best bet to reliably cut through some armour is with some combination of:
  • Tomb Guard (give them the Razor Standard, forget the Standard of the Undying Legion)
  • Necropolis Knights (their armour save will do well against the AHW Chaos Warriors)
  • Ushabti (only in large units, and always with a GW)
 
Killer Angel said:
Yes, stalkers are not great, but against artillery are almost an auto-include!
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Blasphemy!

Stalkers are misunderstood and misused. When used well, they are a tremendously useful unit against many builds/armies. They provide Tomb Kings with a tool set that is not easily replicated anywhere else in the army.

If @Lizards of Renown 's friend brings the list he outlined earlier, the Stalkers have several viable targets!
 
Lizards of Renown said:
Okay, so I had an idea:

If I fielded a large unit of Necropolis Knights (I have 12, a 4 wide, 3 deep unit), then stuck Ramhotep with them.

If I didn't take any other animated constructs, then they would automatically get the re-rollable armour save...

Having Ramhotep as part of the unit means they have Frenzy and Hatred...

Because Ramhotep is within 6" he gives them a 6+ Regeneration save...

Because Chaos Champions are forced to issue challenges, I can decline and then he is sent to the back where he can't be hit...

Seems pretty good to me... Means I don't get a Hierotitan though... but possibly it's the smart thing to do considering it's WoC and i'm using TK's?

@NIGHTBRINGER @Killer Angel @Lord-Marcus ?
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Placing Ramhotep in a unit of Necropolis Knights has quite a few downsides:
  • Ramhotep does not benefit from Look Out Sir roll
  • you reduce the unit's speed from 7 to 4
  • you forfeit the unit's Swiftstride special rule
  • since he must be placed on the side of the unit, you make an already large and unwieldy unit even more unwieldy

Also keep in mind that a Daemon Prince does not have to issue challenges! :cool:
 
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