Advice for Tomb Kings tactics & army list

[Lizards of Renown]

of course.

Yes. Classic failapults.

Right...

Do you both still use them? I guess in games where you'll be facing larger units (Skaven, O&Gs) so you have more of a chance of hitting?

I think I need to remove them from my Chaos list

Ah well, back to the drawing board.

I'm also watching some tactica videos from OnceBitten on YouTube from EEFL. A lot of which I'd already figured out myself, but some of the things are making me think twice about my list. So far, this is particularly the "One Spell" concept for the magic phase although with a CoS and Hierotitan I think I could expand that to "Two Spells".

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Do you both still use them? I guess in games where you'll be facing larger units (Skaven, O&Gs) so you have more of a chance of hitting?

I haven't used them in a while, but that doesn't mean that I won't in the future.

 

[Killer Angel]

Right...

Do you both still use them? I guess in games where you'll be facing larger units (Skaven, O&Gs) so you have more of a chance of hitting?

I missed the question.
Yes, in some games they are strong, despite the curse upon them.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I missed the question.
Yes, in some games they are strong, despite the curse upon them.

I rapidly realized that they hit on a 5+... just like the rest of the army (without Khalida... [sigh])

Ah well... against armies that have huge units like O&G's they will do better as a miss can still do some damage.

I have to rethink my list against Chaos though... as they will end up being pretty useless...

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I posted this on the EEFL website as well, but it seems like tar-pitting would be a major tactic of the Tomb Kings considering how squishy most of our hammer units are...

However, I can't think with how this would be as the Unstable rule means we lose more models... which is kind of counter-productive to the tarpit...

Any advice?

Any successful usages? Or unsuccessful?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Any advice?

Don't do it!

Keep animated constructs out of combats involving skeletons (unless you are fairly certain that you can utterly annihilate the opposing unit).

 

[Lizards of Renown]

So Settra's rules say that he MAY be the armies hierophant... can I take him as this even if I have a higher level wizard?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

So Settra's rules say that he MAY be the armies hierophant... can I take him as this even if I have a higher level wizard?

I would say no. Nothing in his rules indicates that he overrides the normal procedure for determining your hierophant. In fact, his rules actually refer you to the normal selection procedure: "Settra the Imperishable may be your army's Hierophant, as detailed on page 28".

 

[Imrahil]

I would say no.

My verdict () as well, for the things I remember about the tome of TK it always has to be the highest rank of wizard.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I would say no. Nothing in his rules indicates that he overrides the normal procedure for determining your hierophant. In fact, his rules actually refer you to the normal selection procedure: "Settra the Imperishable may be your army's Hierophant, as detailed on page 28".

Ah well, thought i'd ask. I did come to this conclusion myself, but always good to check.

I'll be ready with some more crazy tactical ideas soon!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay, so I've been mulling over my WoC vs TKs match-up and I've come to some conclusions. First, I need to play to my strengths

As far as I can see now this comes down to:

A) Numbers
B) All my troops are unbreakable (obviously 3/4 of them won't win any kind of combat, but at least they'll stick in there
C) Magic

Second, I need to have some surprises. Not just what items my characters are holding, but proper list or tactical surprises.

This last one is challenging as once deployment is done, there's only magic items and Entombed Beneath the Sands / Scouts units left to be placed. But however I cut the cake, I need to have some surprises otherwise he will roll straight through me.

I will also need a fair amount of luck I'll need to cut open a couple of old dice that morning as a sacrifice for the dice gods (Dice for the Dice God's! Rolls for the Roll Throne!)

-

I'm currently looking at the following list:

Lich Priest - Level 4, Talisman of Protection, Dispel Scroll, on Skeletal Steed

Ramhotep the Visionary
Tomb Herald on Skeletal Steed, BSB, Banner of the Undying Legion

4 Liche Priests Lvl 1

6 units of 25 Skeletons
10 Skeleton Horsemen (Liche Priest bodyguard)
5 Horse Archers

47 Tomb Guard with Halberds and Razor Banner
12 Necropolis Knights

3 Screaming Skull Catalpults
Casket of Souls

This is over my allotted points by 250, but it's what I'm looking at.

-

This would be under tactics for:

A) Clog the field.
He's going to come at me as fast as he can. Once he's in combat he know I can't dogpile on him because of Unstable. If I use my Core Tax to head out into the middle of the board hopefully I can throw off his advance and isolate some units.

B) Distract.
Use the Skeleton Horsemen to Scout then Vanguard in front of the Hellcannon(s). This will make him have no line of sight and this less accurate attacks. Use the multiple units to force him to deploy all his army before I have to place my Necro Knights and TG.

3) Choose my battles.
Controlling deployment will enable me to match-up the above two units with good opponents. Ideally on the flanks.

4) Surprises
I'm still working on this. I thought about making the 12 Necro Knights EBtS, but the potential loss of them would lose the game for me automatically so is too much of a gamble.

At least their 3+ rerollable will be a surprise, as will the TG being Frenzied and Hatred because I will put Ramhotep with them.
My friend is a rule stickler as well, so he'll be expecting any Constructs to only be able to recover 1 wound per turn. The BSB on horse back will have a possibility of doing more.

Both the BSB and Ramhotep will be safe as they will be auto-challenged, can refuse, go to back of unit and their special rules will still apply (I'm tracking that the DP doesn't have this rule).

I really want to play the Light council as I can use them to take out the DP and Hellcannons.

The SSC are there as a back-up. They will concentrate fire on the Hellcannons first and, who knows, maybe they'll finally do something useful.

Still trying to think of other angles, tactics and surprises on this.

Thoughts welcome!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Tomb Herald on Skeletal Steed, BSB, Banner of the Undying Legion

I think a Tomb Prince in that giant unit of Tomb Guard will serve you much better than this guy.

Where do you plan on putting this BSB?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I think a Tomb Prince in that giant unit of Tomb Guard will serve you much better than this guy.

Where do you plan on putting this BSB?

I did think of that, but I don't know where to put Ramhotep then, as he is very squishy and if I'm taking him to get the 3+ rerollable then I'd like to use his Hatred and Freny gifting options as well.

If I put two characters then they'll get challenged out. Just one and they can hide at the back after refusing challenge.

BSB on horse with standard with the Necro Knights, so they can get some wounds back when they get nobbled due to initiative.

The concept being that I'm not going to be out-fight any of his characters, but I can "overwhelm by numbers" with the TG having lots of attacks against him (using buffing spells on the unit to replenish troops) and lots of attacks from necroknights with the BSB option for a) combat res +1, b) one less wound (meaning two less as they are constructs) and c) hopefully can get off the spell once or twice to bring back models as the unit will inevitably take a huge beating.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I did think of that, but I don't know where to put Ramhotep then, as he is very squishy and if I'm taking him to get the 3+ rerollable then I'd like to use his Hatred and Freny gifting options as well.

If I put two characters then they'll get challenged out. Just one and they can hide at the back after refusing challenge.

An intriguing tactic.

What happens if the Ramhotep + TG unit gets charged by a unit without a character? Or a DP... who doesn't have to issue a challenge?

BSB on horse with standard with the Necro Knights, so they can get some wounds back when they get nobbled due to initiative.

At best that BSB has a 4+ armour save, 2 wounds and T4. That's a very easy 250 victory points for your opponent. I just don't think you're going to get the return on investment that you are hoping for.

Can a character with an incompatible footprint even be sent to the back for refusing a challenge or is he stuck on the side of the unit?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

An intriguing tactic.

What happens if the Ramhotep + TG unit gets charged by a unit without a character? Or a DP... who doesn't have to issue a challenge?

Fair points, but the DP is the only one I have to worry about. My friend always does the extra 10 points for the Champion as he has told me many times that it's too good an investment to pass up. So even if not a hero/lord, there will definitely be a champ who is compelled to challenge.

I'm liking the hole-poking on my tactics. This is what I was hoping for from you, @Killer Angel and any other TK experts on the forum.

The UK lockdown restrictions seem to be coming to a close in June/July so hopefully this WoC match-up is on the near horizon!

At best that BSB has a 4+ armour save, 2 wounds and T4. That's a very easy 250 victory points for your opponent. I just don't think you're going to get the return on investment that you are hoping for.

Can a character with an incompatible footprint even be sent to the back for refusing a challenge or is he stuck on the side of the unit?

As me and you have discussed earlier, BSB's with magic banners are super squishy and the TK's one especially so. The whole idea is to have him refuse challenges and stay at the back of the unit. If he can resurrect even 2 necroknights he wil have paid back his point value. Considering this could be done with one cast (rolling at least a "2" as it is D6+2 wounds) I think I could do it as long as I keep the Casket on my list.

I checked the rules and it just says that if a character refuses a challenge, they have to go to the back of the unit. Nothing I saw about base sizes...

-

The DP is really a problem.

With my unit heavy list I can dominate the deployment phase and so get my match-up of TG to Chaos Knights and NK to the closest infantry unit (then have the TG swing round and start flanking.

However, I have a bad feeling that my various infantry units may completely hamper my own movement. Even though they will (relatively speaking) charge forwards to delay/hamper.

I don't really have a solid plan for the DP other than the SSC or the Light Council and with my points limit I can't even keep both...

If I do the NK and Ramhotep, then I can't really take the Stalkers (in case they get the re-rollable armour save ability) which also means that I don't have a counter for the Hellcannon (apart from trying to target with the SSC or light council (or both if I can somehow manage it).

Thoughts?

And any thoughts from @Killer Angel ?

 

[Killer Angel]

And any thoughts from @Killer Angel ?

Ramhotep is ther to give you essentially 2 things:
- better save for your NK (and this will be granted)
- combat bonuses for the guards, with the maximum in the first round of combat. In case of a DP, it's up to you to be able to have the charge and don't have ramhotep in the face of the DP. After that first turn, Ramhotep's utility is greatly diminished.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

My friend always does the extra 10 points for the Champion as he has told me many times that it's too good an investment to pass up. So even if not a hero/lord, there will definitely be a champ who is compelled to challenge.

Your friend is unwise to make that decision (IMHO), but you are very much wise to exploit his poor choice of tactics!

When playing WoC, I typically only include a champion if I know that I'm placing a character in that same unit. That way if my opponent has a champion in their unit, I can use my champion to issue the challenge instead of my character.

As me and you have discussed earlier, BSB's with magic banners are super squishy and the TK's one especially so. The whole idea is to have him refuse challenges and stay at the back of the unit.

Your friend doesn't by any chance field the Lore of Death on his DP does he? Just something to be aware of. I just worry that you are dumping a lot of points into a BSB from which you won't get a lot of utility out of.

For comparisons sake, here is a BSB I created for a recent WoC army experimental list of mine:
BSB Exalted Hero (256pts)

• BSB
• Great Weapon
• MoK
• Juggernaut of Khorne (typically I don't field a Khrone BSB, but I wanted to try this guy inside a unit of Skullcrushers)
• Dragonhelm
• Dawnstone
• OTS

Obviously the TK can't field anything near to this level of quality, because WoC >>> TK, but the point is, look at the utility I get out of this guy. First off, a BSB is FAR more important in a WoC army than a TK army. WoC have mediocre leadership, while TK are unbreakable! A BSB is typically considered to be essential in a WoC army and a subpar choice in a TK army.

Next, look at the stats on this guy. 5 S7 attacks + 3 S5 attacks from his Juggernaut... and the OTS. He has 3 wounds and a 1+ re-rollable armour save. The funny thing is that this guy is probably a weaker version of my more typical BSB (who usually sports a 1+ 3++ save).

So, I guess I'm trying to say two things...

• WoC characters are a bit broken!
• Consider what you could be fielding instead of that BSB. You may not have the choices that the WoC have, but most things in the TK book are considered to be far superior than a TK BSB. Plus that banner sucks up powerdice that you really want to be pumping into your 5 wizards!

I don't really have a solid plan for the DP other than the SSC or the Light Council and with my points limit I can't even keep both...

If you can target his DP with your Light Council banishment, that should be your absolute #1 priority!!! (and it should be your opponent's #1 priority to prevent you from doing that!).

I don't know what kit your friend gives his DP, but if he uses a "typical" setup, the SSC will be ineffective. Most DPs have the dragonbane gem to protect them from the Lore of Metal. Unfortunately for you, the SSC counts as flaming!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay, so the fact that I am still working over my list doesn't say much about me... I guess it primarily says that my schedule sucks and I can't get a battle together!

Either way, @NIGHTBRINGER @Killer Angel I've got some questions:

1) I don't need to have units AND characters in the units both take wounds equal to losing combat resolution by right?

2) Magic missiles work like shooting attacks right? So if I've got a BSB on horseback with a monstruous infantry unit, then they have to randomize hits? Or do I get to assign the hits? I've been re-reading the BRB but somehow I'm still a little uncertain.

I had a couple of tactics ideas... still toying with which I'll actually use:

- Use Horse Archers to block Hellcannon line of sight so it has the whole stone thrower always scatters even if he rolls a hit point (and 1/2 artillery dice I know, but still something)

- Possibly use all of my 12 Necropolis Knights with EBTS, take the character that can grant them rerollable armour and then take LOTS of skeletons, archers, chariots and tomb guard

Anyways, still tinkering with the list.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

1) I don't need to have units AND characters in the units both take wounds equal to losing combat resolution by right?

"If an Unstable unit also contains Unstable characters, or is an Unstable character riding an Unstable monster, the controlling player first allocates wounds to the unit/monster, then divides any remaining wounds (if any) as equally as possible amongst the characters." [BRB page 78]

So characters only take wounds if the crumble wipes out the rest of the unit and there are still wounds left to be allocated. That is assuming that the character is IN the unit. If the character had charged into the combat separately from the unit, then both wound take wounds as the character would constitute as a unto unit himself (and all units from the losing side take additional crumble wounds).

2) Magic missiles work like shooting attacks right? So if I've got a BSB on horseback with a monstruous infantry unit, then they have to randomize hits? Or do I get to assign the hits? I've been re-reading the BRB but somehow I'm still a little uncertain.

I can't seem to find an exact rules reference as it pertains to magic missiles. I'll keep looking.

- Use Horse Archers to block Hellcannon line of sight so it has the whole stone thrower always scatters even if he rolls a hit point (and 1/2 artillery dice I know, but still something)

I think the hellcannon is much too tall for the horse archers to block true LoS. Unless the horse archers are on a hill or something, the Hellcannon should be able to see over them.

Possibly use all of my 12 Necropolis Knights with EBTS, take the character that can grant them rerollable armour and then take LOTS of skeletons, archers, chariots and tomb guard

Putting EBtS on a unit of 12 Necroknights is too risky for my liking. If you lose them to the sands, you essentially lose the game right there and then. Also, a unit of that size will have an enormous footprint and will be difficult to place on the board (thus further increasing the chances of a mishap occurring).

 

[Lizards of Renown]

"If an Unstable unit also contains Unstable characters, or is an Unstable character riding an Unstable monster, the controlling player first allocates wounds to the unit/monster, then divides any remaining wounds (if any) as equally as possible amongst the characters." [BRB page 78]

So characters only take wounds if the crumble wipes out the rest of the unit and there are still wounds left to be allocated. That is assuming that the character is IN the unit. If the character had charged into the combat separately from the unit, then both wound take wounds as the character would constitute as a unto unit himself (and all units from the losing side take additional crumble wounds).


I can't seem to find an exact rules reference as it pertains to magic missiles. I'll keep looking.


I think the hellcannon is much too tall for the horse archers to block true LoS. Unless the horse archers are on a hill or something, the Hellcannon should be able to see over them.


Putting EBtS on a unit of 12 Necroknights is too risky for my liking. If you lose them to the sands, you essentially lose the game right there and then. Also, a unit of that size will have an enormous footprint and will be difficult to place on the board (thus further increasing the chances of a mishap occurring).

Bugger on the Horse Archers and EBTS.

I would have chanced the loss to the sands, but it’s a good point about the huge footprint making it more likely to have a mishap.

[LoR sighs heavily]

Back to the tinkering board then!