AoS New Kroak - Arcane Vassal & Celestial Deliverance Interaction

Since the new Kroak model is 18 wounds this means we have lost the ability to use the Balewind Vortex to increase the range of Celestial Deliverance. My question is: Can Celestial Deliverance be cast through a Skink Wizard or an Oracle?

Arcane Vassal says: "When this model attempts to cast ... you must measure the range and visibility for the spell from that Skink Wizard or Oracle"
and Celestial Deliverance says: "within 10 inches of the caster and visible to them"

The part that's tripping me up is that CD says to measure from the caster. If it wasn't for that key word I would say that CD could be measured through the vassal but because of that key word I'm inclined to think that it cannot be measured through a vassal.

Thoughts?

 

Well, Arcane Vassal is literally designed to cast spells through it and this strategy was used before. Maybe, not as intensively, since 22" was more than enough in most cases.

 

In this particular case I am concerned that the wording of CD is designed to exclude it from being used in combination with Arcane Vassal. An example that would support the idea that you cannot use the arcane vassal for CD due to the caster key word are endless spells. Endless spells state that they have to be setup within x of the caster and it is specifically called out in the FAQ that this means the Slann, not the vassal.

 

Steller tempest and mystical unforging both use the within a certain distance of the caster phrasing, and I don't think there is any question they can be cast through an arcane vessel.

I think it is safe to say that endless spells have their own restrictions, and that is why they are more limited.

 

If this is truly the case. I think my Troglodon just became a whole lot more valuable.

 

You can absolutely cast Celestial Deliverance using Arcane Vassal.

"...within 10" of the caster and visible to them...", is referring to the Range and Line of Sight requirements for the spell respectively. Arcane Vassal simply means once the spell is cast you use the chosen vassal model as the point for both.

I think what is confusing you is the order of operations. Just like charging, when casting, you do not select the target until after you have made the casting roll. If you look at CDs requirements, it says that you do not select the target unit(s) until after it has been successfully cast.

I believe it is the case with almost all spells that the target is not chosen until after the spell is successfully cast.

 

Trog is interesting, but I doubt 220 pts is a worth it.

 

That is the rub. If it was 180-200, the Trog would be more attractive. But, you can still work with it at 220. It's just a much tighter fit.

 

Kroak + 1 unit of T̶e̶m̶p̶l̶e̶ Saurus Guard is already 530 points. Taking an Oracle means I can place him to one side of the board and put the Oracle on the other side effectively giving Kroak a threat bubble on both sides of the board. Unfortunately I think at 750 points for a single combo means the whole list needs to be tailored to that strategy.

 

As long as you can shove the skink combo in, and some salamanders in any empty spots, you'll honestly be fine. The big argument against the Trog is that even if it was less points, he's a bit lackluster as a character/monster. No rend on the trogs attacks, on a creature that gets bonuses to charge for doing damage with it's spit.

 

Unless the Oracle goes down in price a good chunk, I think you're better off using one of the skink heroes you'll already have for the Arcane vassal. They're fast and will likely be in front of Kroak and somewhere important anyway

 

Are there endless spells where you cannot use arcane vassal?

 

You cannot use Arcane Vassal with ANY endless spell. FAQ from Malign Sorcery

 

Oh thx, i totally missed that

 

All of them unfortunately. They are not considered spells in the traditional sense and do not benefit from range boosters. The Malign Sorcery FAQ addresses this specifically.

 

Trog was always worth 220 points in very specific builds (general Draco's tail lists that were heavy on salamanders, lighter on skinks, and used the oracle for more summoning points)

It certainly didn't get better by any means, but i think it's a more appealing option because ways to buff kroak's range have been reduced.

 

I liked oracle just to maximize Kroak's threat range and free him up for fun teleporting shenanigans with Draco's tail. I found the second slann to always feel a little wasted, there just wasn't enough spells I wanted to cast to really get the most out of him. And the extra CP (in dracos at least) felt a little unneeded.

I think that's the beauty of the book tho, not a whole lot of bad choices